Can anyone decipher a couple of things on this letter?

[Chris_Baker]

All the artillery of 1st Division (presumably including Z1 Heavy TMB) was moved to the area of, and placed under orders of IX Corps for, the bombardment before and during the Battle of Messines. Source: British Official History, 1917 vol 2.

[Stebie9173]

Thanks, Chris.

I sit corrected.

And that does make a lot better sense!

Any note of when they moved back? (Just being greedy, like...) The inference I draw from the Naval article on HUSH was that most of the Field Artillery and the Trench Mortar batteries were with the Division in training.

Your webpage on TMBs lists "X","y" and "Z" as Medium batteries in general, and "V" as the Heavy battery (presumably a general rule rather than a hard and fast one), so I presumed that "Z" battery of 1st Division was a Medium one.

Steve.

[MelPack]

Steve

Given the treatment for wounds at the 1st Canadian CCS and burial at Adinkerke, do you think that at least some of the 1st Division Artillery was left in situ after the success of the German Operation Strandfest as per the LLT Map?

http://www.1914-1918.net/BATTLES/hush/strandfest.htm

Regards

Mel

[Stebie9173]

It certainly seems possible. Yes.

I can't find le Clipon on a modern map. The battalion history of the 1st Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment (2nd Brigade, 1st Division) says that Le Clipon is/was a small hamlet situated on the French coast between Gravelines and Dunkerque. I think it probably disappeared under the Ferryport....

It is on the wrong side of Dunkerque for transport of wounded to Adinkerke from there, but Adinkerke does seem well placed for the evacuation of artillery positioned to defend the Yser near Nieuport.

Steve.

[MelPack]

Is there anyway in which a list can be extracted for the CWGC burials at Adinkerke in August 1917 to establish their units?

regards

Mel

[Twiglet]

I received his Militia Attestation papers today, he joined up in June 1904. So not just for WW1 as first thought.

Keep digging chaps! I'm hooked!

Thanks loads.

[Stebie9173]

These are the nearby burials, Mel.

Grave / Name/ rank/ No. / Regiment/corps/ Date of death/ age/ Grave - Unit - Division

B. 23. PATERSON , C A Gunner 30188 Royal Field Artillery 28/08/1917 Unknown B. 23. - "D" Bty. 156th Bde. - 33 Div

B. 24. HOGG, PETER, P Private 250951 Royal Scots 28/08/1917 Unknown B. 24. - 5th/6th Bn. - 32 Div

B. 25. TIBBLES , W Gunner 19647 Royal Garrison Artillery 28/08/1917 Unknown B. 25. - 247th Siege Bty. - ?

B. 26. HARDWELL, LESLIE FREDERICK, L F Private 67983 Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 29/08/1917 20 B. 26. - 219th Coy.- 32 Div

B. 27. TOWARD , G Private 202673 Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) 28/08/1917 Unknown B. 27. - 1st Bn. - 33 Div

B. 28. DORAN , J Private 70741 Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 27/08/1917 Unknown B. 28. - 98th Coy. - 33 Div

{WO363 - 70741 John Doran died of wounds at No.1 Canadian CCS on 27-8-1917}

B. 29. CHINN , R H Private 65786 Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 29/08/1917 20 B. 29. - 202nd Coy. - 66 Div

B. 30. DUFF, FREDRICK JOHN, F J Gunner 76115 Royal Garrison Artillery 28/08/1917 36 B. 30. - 247th Siege Bty. - ?

{WO363 76115 Frederick John Duff was wounded in the head on 28-8-1917 and died of wounds at No. 24 C.C.S on 28-8-1917}

B. 31. JONES, JAMES BALDWIN, J B Private 89048 Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) 29/08/1917 21 B. 31. - 14th Coy.- 32 Div

B. 32. HOOSON, HERBERT, H Private 201429 Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment) 29/08/1917 37 B. 32. - 1st/4th Bn. - 49 Div

{WO363 - 201429 Herbert Hooson died of wounds at No 1 Canadian CCS on 29-8-1917, having been wounded on 14-8-1917}

B. 33. TALLOWIN , W E Bombardier 20382 Royal Garrison Artillery 30/08/1917 Unknown B. 33. - "Z" 1st TMB - 1 Div

B. 34. BARKER, ALEXANDER WATSON, A W Private 43335 Royal Scots 29/08/1917 27 B. 34. - 5th/6th Bn. - 32 Div

B. 35. STANBURY , F Gunner 30318 Royal Garrison Artillery 29/08/1917 Unknown B. 35. - 305th Siege Bty. - ?

B. 36. BLACKBURN , H Private 203164 Lancashire Fusiliers 30/08/1917 Unknown B. 36. - 3rd/5th Bn - 33 Div

D. 01. NEILL , J Gunner 3373 Royal Garrison Artillery 30/08/1917 23 D. I. - 1st TMB - 1 Div

D. 02. ADAMSON , J Acting Bombardier 109267 Royal Field Artillery 01/09/1917 Unknown D. 2. - 158th Bde. - ?

D. 03. FOX, CHARLES, C Bombardier 706609 Royal Field Artillery 01/09/1917 20 D. 3. - 331st Bde. - ?

Row "C" was actually an earlier Row with burials of men who died from 8th to 21st August 1917.

A predominance of 32nd and 33rd divisions. Tallowin and Neill are the only ones from 1st division.

Steve.

[MelPack]

Steve

Wow - a painstaking piece of research!

I have had a quick look at the LLT and neither the 32nd nor the 33rd Divisions were involved in 3rd Ypres.

What is your take on the letter from Lieutenant Brought about the recommendation for a second bar? Do you think that it was linked to the fatal wounding?

If the DOW rules out an accident then are we talking about enemy action in the form of a long range shell or aircraft?

This is a real teaser!

Regards

Mel

[Stebie9173]

Can someone just check something for me in Soldiers Died please - a man I know died in a trench mortar explosion during firing practice. Is he listed as DoW or Died?

228536 Pte. Archer, E., 11th Royal Fusiliers

Name: ARCHER, ERNEST

Initials: E

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)

Unit Text: 1st Bn.

Date of Death: 13/09/1918

Service No: 228536

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. E. 4.

Cemetery: GUARDS' CEMETERY, COMBLES

Hmmm. Just realised the battalion details are wrong on this man's CWGc entry. He is listed as killed by a Trench Mortar explosion with 11th Battalion Royal Fusiliers on 13-9-1918, on a list of dead/wounded in another man' records...!

Anyway, it would be interesting to see what his cause of death is listed as....

Also, Hubert Podmore in ODGW, another I know died in a TMB accident (31-12-1917).

Steve.

[Richard Jones]

Evening Steve,

Major Hubert Podmore is listed as killed 31 /12/1917 Att. 12th Middx.

Pte. Ernest Archer 228536 is down as Died but on 13/1/1918. Born Cambridge, Enlisted Staines and resident Hanwell.

Best Regards Mike

[Stebie9173]

Ok, I've found another man who died after a TMB explosion, again listed as Died, so it does seem that the victims of TMB accidents aren't generally listed as Died of Wounds. Now I know....

Thanks, Mike.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

I've been asked to post a quick timeline of events in William Tallowin's Army career (I have added some known 1st Division actions and locations in italics for some context).

William Tallowin

Attestation Form details

Previously served in 3rd Volunteer Battalion of The Essex Regiment (Militia)

Enlisted into the Army and Medically examined, 4th June 1904

Examined for Military purposes, 6th June 1904.

Approved to join Royal Garrison Artillery at Stratford, 7th June 1904.

Numbered, 7203 in Royal Garrison Artillery (no unit given).

Documents stamped Royal Garrison Artillery, Dover.

In training at RGA Depot, 6-6-1904 to 15-8-1904.

Joined RGA unit (unspecified), 16-8-1904

Unknown service thereafter, as yet.

Presumably he was discharged from the Army some time between 1904 and 1915, as by 1915 he has a new number, presumably due to re-enlistment. A Regular Army enlistment if served to full term of 12 years split between active/reserve should have taken him to 1916, so it lloks like the terms of his service were either Militia/Territorial or Special Reserve.

---

Re-enlisted into the Royal Garrision Artillery, No. 20382

No date as yet, though probably a re-enlistment for the war?

To France, 27-12-1915 (1914-15 Star/British War Medal/Victory Medal).

(No unit stated)

1st Division : December 1915 to June 1916 - Holding the line at Loos

1st Division : Early July 1916. The Division arrives on the Somme. They were not involved in the First Day of the Somme.

1st Division : Mid-July 1916. The Division occupies trenches near High Wood arrives on the Somme with a view to capturing further ground through small scale attacks. Attacks are made with limited success until the end of July when the Division left the line.

William Tallowin awarded the Military Medal, London Gazette 14-9-1916, "Z" Battery, 1st Trench Mortar Battery.

Rather difficult to estimate a date of award but it could have been any time from December 1915 through to July 1916, really.

1st Division : Mid-August 1916. Further fighting for 1st Division in and out of the line pressing towards High Wood. The Division moved a short way back for rest at the beginning of September 1916

1st Division : Early-September 1916. Return to the battle with the front line at the edge of High Wood, though not involved in the major attack on September 1916. The Division left the Somme and moved to Abbeville, 40 miles behind the lines in early October 1916.

1st Division : November 1916. Final tour of duty on the Somme, with little forward movement but very much mud and frosbite.

1st Division : Early 1917. Out of the line at Bresle in January, ex-French trenches at Barleux in February & March, Morcourt in April 1917, and Villers-Brettoneux in May 1917.

1st Division : June 1917. In Reserve behind the lines neat Meteren for the battle of Messines, and moved to Nieuport in late June 1917.

1st Divisional Artillery: June 1917. Detached from 1st Division and sent to support Messines attack

William Tallowin awarded Bar to the Military Medal, believed to have been during June 1917 at Messines.

1st Division - July 1917. 1st Division occupies the extreme left of the Western Front on the beach at Nieuport Bains, replacing French troops. Germans launch "Operation Strandfest" against the troops in the Dunes north of the Yser river. 1st Northamptons and 2nd KRRC lose almost whole strength of battalion at the Battle of the Dunes on 10th July 1917. Other support troops (units unknown) probably caught up in the disaster as well.

1st Division - 1st August 1917 onwards. Move to Le Clipon Camp on the coast west of Dunkerque. Camp is sealed off for secrecy purposes for training for Operation Hush.

William Tallowin possibly recommended for a second Bar to the Military Medal, some time close to his death.

William Tallowin severely wounded around Midnight on 29th/30th August 1917.

Consensus is that William seems to have been wounded as a result of enemy action, rather than an accident. There are two possible explanations: 1) That he was wounded by artillery/aeroplane action whilst at Le Clipon Camp - we consider this unlikely bearing in mind the dsitance between Le Clipon and Adinkerke, or 2) That the 1st Trench Mortar Battery, or part thereof was detached from 1st Division and attached to another unit that was possibly still in the area south of Nieuport that 1st Division had vacated at the end of July 1917. Scenario (2) appears more likely to us. Gunner 3373 J Neill of the same unit appears to have been mortally injured around the same time and may be another avenue of research should his service records be available.

William Tallowin admitted to No. 1 Canadian Casualty Clearing station at Adinkerke, night of 29th/30th August 1917.

William Tallowin died of Wounds at No. 1 Canadian Casualty Clearing station at Adinkerke at approximately 2 a.m., 30th August 1917.

A member of "Z" Battery, 1st Trench Mortar Battery at time of death.

Buried at Grave B.33 Adinkerke Military Cemetery, France.

Shout if I've missed anything!

Steve.

[Twiglet]

Steve, thank you so much. All this information brings William to life, as it were.

Because of the generosity, time and patience shown by the incredible people on this board, I am a very grateful and awestruck Twiglet.

[kevinrowlinson]

His 20382 number is consistant with someone actually enlisting in August 1904, so without seeing the various papers I cannot explain where the 7203 number came from. If he enlisted for a 8 & 4 year term he would have been put on reserve in 1912 and possible mobilised 5 August 1914 with the same number.

Doesn't add much I know.

Kevin

[Twiglet]

Kevrow, I have various papers as stated above. If you'd like copies and you think they might help, I'd be happy to email them to you.

[Stebie9173]

The top of the Attestation form - including his number and terms of enlistment - have been sliced off the top of the PDF image I have received of his form, but his statement of service shows:

Steve.

[MelPack]

Steve

Does it provide any indication of the reason for discharge after 70 days?

Regards

Mel

[kevinrowlinson]

Exactly what he was in for 70 days, with the SN 7203, I cannot make out. I can make out the Garrison Artillery, and presumably there is Royal before that, but what comes before and after on the stamp? If it is militia then he obviously had to be dischaged before joining the regulars the following day.

Kevin

[kevinrowlinson]

Essex RGA Volunteer [Militia] Corps, later East Anglian (Essex) RGA as at 1-4-1908. Nearest I can find.

Kevin

[Stebie9173]

My reading of the form is that he was at an RGA Depot for 70 days from 6-6-1904 to 15-8-1904, then joined an RGA unit on 16-8-1904.

Kev's explanation of Milita to Regulars is very plausible to me, especially with the 20382 number relating to 1904.

I think the word at the bottom is "DOVER".

Steve.

[kevinrowlinson]

After reading the pages of records available, I still think he was transferring from one unit to the regulars. What that was I have no idea, as the top of the attestation form has been cut off. Obviously a RA unit.

I go along with Dover, but wondered whether there was something before Royal and after Artillery. Hardly important.

Would be interesting to know if a battery went out on the 26-12-1915 and landed 27-12-1915. He may then have been sent to a trench mortar school before joining Z1 TMB.

Kevin

[Stebie9173]

I had a quick look at the 1st Division Trench Mortar Batteries War Diary today.

It didn't help that I didn't have the battery letter to hand, so I copied the batteries I could see, which didn't include Z Battery - unless I missed it, however the Medium TMB's of 1st division were not in quarantine with the rest of the Division at Clipon Camp, but instead still in/behind the line at Nieuport Bains.

The X/1 diary does have a telling passage on 29-8-1917:

"At 10.30 p.m., the enemy shelled the Trench Mortar Batteries billets at Coxyde Bains with a six inch naval gun. X/1 was the only battery that avoided casualties."

I do suspect that this could be the answer to William Tallowin's and Gunner Neill's fatal injuries. Coxyde (modern Koksijde) is only a stones throw from his burial site at the CCS. Presumably the naval gun was land bound at Ostende or Nieuport rather than on a battleship.

Steve.

P.S. I forgot all about the MM's as I only thought about it whilst I was there. No preparation on these things doesn't help! Sorry... The stupid thing is that the war diaries to mention a fair few ORs. Choose a blunt object for me to hit myself with, and consider it done...