The alleged Beersheba Charge Photograph

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I understand Jones did this by looking at the shadows casted by the horses and riders, no surprise they lead him to his own view.

That is not to say he's wrong only the times maybe close and the photo taken around the same time as the charge?

It can only add more questions not answer them.

S.B

[Guest catbrain]

I think a good summary of the controversy of this image is the caption summary for the image on the Australian War Memorial website and search for this photo number you'll also find this description [the bullet points were added by me].

If you want to see the same image with the 'plumes of smoke' use the ID Number: P03723.001

--

(Photo) ID Number: A02684

Maker: Unknown

Place made: Ottoman Empire: Palestine

Date made: c February 1918

Physical description: Black & white

Credit line: Donor A Johnston

Summary:

• "'Thunder of a light horse charge'. This photograph has been described as one of the charge of the 4th Light Horse Brigade at Beersheba on the 31st October 1917, taken by a Turk whose camera was captured later in the day. An enquiry undertaken with the object of establishing its authenticity revealed that it was probably taken when this brigade staged near Belah, in or about February 1918, a representation of the charge for a cinematographer."

• Above is the original caption for this photograph [that is the first bullet point]. The photograph has been the subject of controversy, insofar as a number of claims have been made in relation to its origins.

• Once the prospect of the photograph being taken by a Turkish soldier was disproved, it was thought that the photograph had been taken by 2169 Pte Eric George Elliott of the 4th Light Horse Machine Gun company. Pte Elliott was said to have been operating as a range finder when the charge passed him on 31st October.

• However, it is unlikely that this is a photograph of the actual charge. The real charge took place over bare ground on a slight downwards slope, and the horses were partially obscured by the dust they kicked up. Both riders and horses, unlike those in this image, were carrying all their kit and equipment.

• As the original caption suggests, it was probably taken when two regiments of the 4th Brigade, Australian Light Horse, re-enacted the charge for the official photographer Frank Hurley, at Belah on 7 February 1918. Hurley's diary records filming such a re-enactment, although none of his footage taken on the day remains. It is probable that another person photographed the event.

---

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

For folks who are interested in the controversy attached to the alleged Elliott photograph, it is instructive to read the Beersheba account of Lt Col Bruce Cameron, CO, 12th LHR.

The account is transcribed from the War Diary Appendix. The location of the account is here:

Cameron, CO 12th ALHR, account about the fall of Beersheba

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...l-of-beersheba/

Mates, it is a simple match up of the information contained in this description to that of Elliott in his claim for the picture. Cameron says:

Headquarters, "C" Squadron and 1 sub-section of Machine Gun Squadron moved in line of troop column 300 yards in rear of "B" Squadron.

The term "line of troop column" is a very specific cavalry term. The result matches up with the Massie map drawn a few days after Beersheba which details the line up prior to the charge and then the direction followed by those charging. Here is the location of the Massie map.

Hand drawn map of the 4th LHB prior to charging into Beersheba, 31 October 1917

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse...1-october-1917/

The map clearly illustrates in perfect detail the exact meaning of "line of troop column". It leaves no room for doubt.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest catbrain]

Hello everyone

Dr Jean Bou gave a very succinct lecture at the Australian War Memorial on 31 Oct 08 that summarised the various pieces of evidence and stories about this photo - culminating in his conclusion that the photo is not of the charge; and although it is likely to be taken by Frank Hurley at Belah in 1918, this can not be conclusively proven either.

The Australian newspaper wrote an article summarising this lecture at: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...114-601,00.html

Cheers

[Guest Frenchfactor]

Mates

I would like to thank everyone for their excellent contributions and raising all the points that each one of has. Some are good, others are retelling of old and familiar tales which bear little relevance to the thesis presented but it is always good to have them retold.

The thing I keep telling everyone when dealing with an issue such as this is to follow the money trail. See who stands to gain by maintaining the myth.

Well without keeping anyone in suspense any longer, I will give an idea as to two organisations that stand to gain financially by peddling this myth.

1. The RSL

2. Whatever historical company [read - marketing company] that chooses to come up with some legend to flog items at over inflated prices.

Evidence.

For a hundred dollars, you too can be the owner of:

And here is the print:

You can see it in situ for the next few days

http://tinyurl.com/6mclzf

Apart from no VC's being won there, and this fact should have been known by the RSL, this piece of dross is no more than a sick joke made at the expense of the brave men who were at Beersheba on that day.

Folks need to get their heads around the concept that when you endorse the Jones thesis, which has been proved conclusively to be wrong by his own evidence, regardless of all the other circumstantial arguments floating around, then you endorse the exploitation of these brave men in this fashion. These ordinary men become mythologised into cartoon, cardboard cut out characters by this dross. It demeans and dishonours their sacrifice.

Cheers

Bill

Just a point... men were initially awarded medals, at least one VC, for the Beersheba charge but due to an alleged murder of Bedouin villagers by members of the Australian LH all medals were terminated.

[armidale]

Just a point... men were initially awarded medals, at least one VC, for the Beersheba charge but due to an alleged murder of Bedouin villagers by members of the Australian LH all medals were terminated.

FF,

I am particularly interested in the forfeited VC. I had heard that it was awarded to Trooper Schramm of the 9th Light horse. Do you have any more detail on it?

Brian

[Capt_Starlight]

In Forty Thousand Horsemen during the charge at Beersheba sequence there is an obvious clip (about 10 or so seconds) been inserted from somewhere else - it is so different in quality and "country".

I wonder if this is actually a remnant of the Hurley re-enactment film ?

[Auimfo]

FF2??

Your comment is misleading on a number of levels.

Firstly, no 'awarded' medals were terminated. It may be that recommendations were withdrawn or knocked back but certainly none that had already been given.

Secondly, I think you'll find that the alleged Surafend incident was mainly a NZ affair with maybe just a sprinkling of a few Lighthorsemen thrown into the mix.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

FF2

I have to join Tim in scratching my head in confusion.

There was a VC won at Beersheba - Corporal John Collins 25th Welch Fusiliers.

Now as to Surafend and medals, the only division effected by Allenby's order was the Anzac Mounted Division, and that was after 10 December 1918, well and truly after the medals were handed out for the Beersheba battle. In view of this situation, the 4th LHB was part of the Australian Mounted Division who were in no way impacted by the Allenby order after Surafend. So if a VC recommendation was not approved, then it was because it was not their turn to have one approved. The VC at El Buggar on 27 October 1917 was the last to be awarded to the Mounted Troops so it was now the turn of the Infantry to get a VC in Palestine, which they did receive in due course.

So there is no conspiracy, Surafend played no part, just the internal army politics in dishing out the gongs, something that was and still is a most ferocious fought action, with results far more dangerous than those faced upon any battlefield.

Cheers

Bill