Lt Algernon Bird - von Richthofen's 61st opponent

[Jonathan Saunders]

_{Many thanks!}

_{MvR looks happy with himself and I think your father looks very relieved to be alive as I think you said earlier.}

_{Jonathan S}

[Gorrion]

If I may crave the indulgence of the readers of this thread, I can report that I googled the name of the man who gave the Holzminden photograph to my father, Norman A Birks. He was a prominent engineer in the Bradford area and in his obituary provided by his son, it is confirmed that he was in the RFC and Holzminden camp. I can also confirm that the photo is of Holzminden as it corresponds exactly to a photograph in "The Tunnellers of Holzminden".

This is the URL of the photographs of my father and I would be grateful if anybody can identify the other people in it. My father is second from the left with the pipe.

http://www.flickr.co...s/31173169@N06/

Thanks, in hopeful anticipation.

Readers might be interested to know that I have located Norman A Birks's grandson who has kindly supplied me with much information about Holzminden including the names of the other people in the photograph. So, from left to right we have: Holcroft, Bird, Lewis and Insoll. They were the inmates of Room 31 at Holzminden as Norman Birks's diary attests. The other inmates of Room 31 on 5th May 1918 were Grierson and Crawford. According to Norman Birks's grandson this Crawford is almost certainly O.G.S. Crawford who became a pioneer of aerial photography applied to archaeology. He published his autobiography "Said and Done" in 1955, and was the subject of a biography by Kitty Hauser "Bloody Old Britain: O>G>S> Crawford and the Archaeology of Modern Life" (Granta 2008).

[alex revell]

Peter,

Every time I open a photograph which you have posted, then close it, I get a porno site come up. Does anyone else have the same experience.

[fitzee]

Peter,

Every time I open a photograph which you have posted, then close it, I get a porno site come up. Does anyone else have the same experience.

Same thing here

[Gorrion]

I have now put the photos up on Flickr and may be seen on:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31173169@N06/

Once again, very sorry to have caused any embarrassment.

[rowarrior]

Hi guys,

i am possibly 6 years late to pitch into this topic but better late than never.

First of all, it is great to had seen Peter Bird's pictures and opinion.

Second, allow me to get down to the point. I have been studying Manfred Von Richthofen for a while now, but I have done it differently that others. I have created something like a calendar, from 1916 to 1918 of MvRs life, as detailed per day with matching documentation and pictures as possible.

The doubt if MvR would have followed Lt. Bird all the way to the ground pumping bullets even though he was crash landing is controversial.

I stand by believing MvR was not the kind of person to keep hitting a wounded or surrendered enemy. Especially at that point in his career where he met with Lt. Bird (Sept 1917).

MvR at the beginning of his flying career was certainly very driven, very 'score-oriented' , but there is concrete info to suggest he was not a cold blooded killer: Remember the instance where while flying with Voss in June 1917, MvR got shot at from the ground by a man he had just brought down? MvR yet, did not strife him from the air. This was even documented by MvR's mom in "Mother of Eagles" .

MvR was anything but impulsive. Also, by the time MvR faced Lt. Bird, MvR had changed. He had quickly matured. His book had just been published and he had hated it, because it made him look insolent. He also had rejected the renaming of Jasta 11 to Jasta Richthofen and many other things that I can list that indicate he was not the 'score-oriented pilot' anymore.

However; there is still one thing I believe may stir the most controversy, call me crazy, but I have circumstantial facts that may support my theory:

Right after meeting Lt. Bird, von Richthofen discontinued collecting his Silver Cups (check the dateline, its true). I dont think MvR discontinued this practice because of the lack of silver as it is argued. That is what the German propaganda machine wanted people to believe. I am a pilot myself, if silver was not available any longer, you get tin, you get bronze, you get gold, you get whatever to keep making those trophies going. MvR did not.

Is it a coincidence MvR discontinued his trophy collection after having such a meeting with Lt. Bird? I dont think so. Look at MvR's victories after Bird. More than half of those 'victims' survived. MvR was not pumping bullets in these men as the planes went all the way to the ground.

At this stage, MvR was already reclusive, saying things like 'I am in wretched spirits after every sortie' , "the war is very serious, very grim" and he was suffering hellish headaches because of his head wound.

Trust me, with those low spirits, and body aching, (as a pilot) the last thing you will do is go into a steep dive pumping bullets after an enemy already going down, cuz that dive will cause high G's and takes much energy out of anybody, specially someone in low spirits that is going on on patrol various times per day.

Anyhow, just my 2 cents, but I trust it becomes another point to consider

[David Filsell]

Unless you have clear evidence to prove other I believe that MvR could and would follow people down at any stage of his career and like Mannock it got him killed, in both cases almost certainly by ground fire, and also like Mannock he should almost certainly not been flying operationally because of recognised and reported signs of combat stress.

[MikeMeech]

Hi guys,

i am possibly 6 years late to pitch into this topic but better late than never.

First of all, it is great to had seen Peter Bird's pictures and opinion.

Second, allow me to get down to the point. I have been studying Manfred Von Richthofen for a while now, but I have done it differently that others. I have created something like a calendar, from 1916 to 1918 of MvRs life, as detailed per day with matching documentation and pictures as possible.

The doubt if MvR would have followed Lt. Bird all the way to the ground pumping bullets even though he was crash landing is controversial.

I stand by believing MvR was not the kind of person to keep hitting a wounded or surrendered enemy. Especially at that point in his career where he met with Lt. Bird (Sept 1917).

MvR at the beginning of his flying career was certainly very driven, very 'score-oriented' , but there is concrete info to suggest he was not a cold blooded killer: Remember the instance where while flying with Voss in June 1917, MvR got shot at from the ground by a man he had just brought down? MvR yet, did not strife him from the air. This was even documented by MvR's mom in "Mother of Eagles" .

MvR was anything but impulsive. Also, by the time MvR faced Lt. Bird, MvR had changed. He had quickly matured. His book had just been published and he had hated it, because it made him look insolent. He also had rejected the renaming of Jasta 11 to Jasta Richthofen and many other things that I can list that indicate he was not the 'score-oriented pilot' anymore.

However; there is still one thing I believe may stir the most controversy, call me crazy, but I have circumstantial facts that may support my theory:

Right after meeting Lt. Bird, von Richthofen discontinued collecting his Silver Cups (check the dateline, its true). I dont think MvR discontinued this practice because of the lack of silver as it is argued. That is what the German propaganda machine wanted people to believe. I am a pilot myself, if silver was not available any longer, you get tin, you get bronze, you get gold, you get whatever to keep making those trophies going. MvR did not.

Is it a coincidence MvR discontinued his trophy collection after having such a meeting with Lt. Bird? I dont think so. Look at MvR's victories after Bird. More than half of those 'victims' survived. MvR was not pumping bullets in these men as the planes went all the way to the ground.

At this stage, MvR was already reclusive, saying things like 'I am in wretched spirits after every sortie' , "the war is very serious, very grim" and he was suffering hellish headaches because of his head wound.

Trust me, with those low spirits, and body aching, (as a pilot) the last thing you will do is go into a steep dive pumping bullets after an enemy already going down, cuz that dive will cause high G's and takes much energy out of anybody, specially someone in low spirits that is going on on patrol various times per day.

Anyhow, just my 2 cents, but I trust it becomes another point to consider

Hi

You might be interested in Russ Gannon's discussion on MvR's last 30 claims on the Aerodrome Forum -'People', '99 Years Ago' thread, page 10 onwards.

Mike

[rowarrior]

Unless you have clear evidence to prove other I believe that MvR could and would follow people down at any stage of his career and like Mannock it got him killed, in both cases almost certainly by ground fire, and also like Mannock he should almost certainly not been flying operationally because of recognised and reported signs of combat stress.

valid point.

however; in my personal opinion there is more info to support he changed his ways from blood thirsty hunter to merely a pilot tasked with bringing down machines. also, like i said, i am a pilot, and the physical integrity needed to pull out of high G dives is big. MvR did not have this after he got shot in the head. when u pull out of a dive at 3, 4 or 5 G in a modern plane it is very hard on the body.... imagine a migraine ridden guy with a dented skull ,,,it would have been so painful....

Hi

You might be interested in Russ Gannon's discussion on MvR's last 30 claims on the Aerodrome Forum -'People', '99 Years Ago' thread, page 10 onwards.

Mike

will do, thanks!!!!!

[David Filsell]

I would like to see some of the support you have for your view that he changed his combat technique. Although, as I have said, he should almost certainly not have been flying, medical evidence for 'migraine ridden', a different diagnosis altogether to that which recognises the effects of a head wound, would also be interesting. His behaviour in the last flight, like that of Mannock, strongly indicated that target fixation and war weariness led them both to break the rules that they had taught others (being the two most effective fighter leaders of WW1). I think we need more than generalisations - there have been far too many about both flyers.

[rowarrior]

Hi guys,

it took me couple of days, but I wanted to draft a good answer. First, I still have to read Mr. Gannon's descriptions of every plane MvR shot down after his 60th victory. I will do it soon.

Now, will proceed with the facts that are known to me and the books and info that I have collected.

My point was: I stand by believing MvR was not the kind of person to keep hitting a wounded or surrendered enemy. Especially at that point in his career where he met with Lt. Bird (Sept 1917).

The most obvious explanation: MvR's physical limitations. MvR had surgery August 27 to remove a bone fragment from his skull. He met Lt. Bird in the skies on Sept 3. How can MvR be diving after Lt. Bird with such recent would? it is possible, however EXTREMELY unlikely. I am sorry I use a personal experience, but I am a pilot, I practice spins, dives, loops...pulling out of a reasonable dive is at least 4G's . you get compressed onto the seat at 4 Gs , can you imagine the cold-thinking MvR with a 6 day old head surgery wound doing that? and we know that MvR didnt even do acrobatics as he believed they were unnecessary risks.

Now, only a few days later, on Sept 6, MvR went on leave. This leave -according to Bodenschatz- was voluntary. MvR was flown that day on his 2 seat Albatros to Berlin, and then he took the train! very likely he could not fly himself around at that point.

Although there is always a small chance he dove after Lt. Bird, I think there is a reasonably big chance of the opposite.

Allow me to stop here, and maybe we can chat a little bit about it. Later, I can elaborate on conclusions and written evidence on MvR's personality. Thank you for taking the time to read me.

Blue Skies to all.

[Gorrion]

Just a note to honour my father on this, the centenary of his encounter with MvR over the village of Bousbeque. Incidentally, I have since learnt that the serial number plate from MvR aeroplane when he was shot down has turned up in Queensland (Australia) allegedly. It is now displayed in Cairns. I'll try to post a photo if anyone is interested. 

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Peter

Thank you for coming back to commemorate the centenary of your father's encounter with the Red Baron.  i hadn't seen this thread before, and it is fascinating, with interesting contributions from a number of other people too.

 

Liz

[Gorrion]

Just a note to honour my father on the 103rd anniversary of his shooting down. A point: careful reading of what Fokker reported on this topic suggests that it wasn't MvR who rescued my father from being shot by ground troops upon crashing, but their officer. Fokker says they went to breakfast at the Casino restaurant but could not prolong the pleasant encounter as the rules about PoWs had to be obeyed and he had to be handed in.

 

In reply to JFM's entry, I think that, in September 1917, Voss was leader of Jasta 10. He may have started out with the patrol but broke off when he realised that MvR had the "kill" and returned to refuel. He was later credited with a kill about 30 miles away at 11am so anxious was he to up his score. He was a loner anyway, so that would have made sense. All my speculation of course. 

 

Another note: there is a famous photo of my father and MvR surrounded by German officers and I am grateful to JFM for sending me a copy which he had colourised very skilfully. In a photograph of a room in Schweidnitz where all MvR trophies and memorabilia were housed, there is an identical photo framed on the wall beside a portrait of Richthofen. I bet his wasn't in colour, though!

[T, Fazzini]

There was a book published about Holzminden POW camp about several RfC POWs who escaped...doesnt anyone remeber the title and when it was published?

[pierssc]

More than one, I think... just pop "Holzminden" in the search box at the top right of this page to see other threads here in which it has been mentioned.  For books and publication dates, try your local abebooks website and search on "holzminden escape".

[Robert Gibbs]

Morning all, and in particular to Peter Bird @Gorrion. My grandparents lived opposite Bird's Mill in Downham Market , and I did meet a Mr. Bird once ; given the dates and the fact I was born in 1954 I suspect it was Mr. Aubrey Bird. I remember he drove an E-Type Jaguar. I read once  ( many years ago  - I would have thought the '60s) a book giving an account of MvR's "conquests" , and his encounter with Peter's father was mentioned. Does anyone know what the title of that book might be : I remember it as an old hard back book. Peter , I live in Norwich , and I believe you live in Cambridge . Would be good to have a chat sometime. I can be reached on (address removed by moderator) RG 2/4/22

[Gorrion]

On 02/04/2022 at 09:09, Robert Gibbs said:

Morning all, and in particular to Peter Bird @Gorrion. My grandparents lived opposite Bird's Mill in Downham Market , and I did meet a Mr. Bird once ; given the dates and the fact I was born in 1954 I suspect it was Mr. Aubrey Bird. I remember he drove an E-Type Jaguar. I read once  ( many years ago  - I would have thought the '60s) a book giving an account of MvR's "conquests" , and his encounter with Peter's father was mentioned. Does anyone know what the title of that book might be : I remember it as an old hard back book. Peter , I live in Norwich , and I believe you live in Cambridge . Would be good to have a chat sometime. I can be reached on (address removed by moderator) RG 2/4/22

Yes, that would have been my uncle Aubrey, my father's middle brother. Born in 1898 and never in particularly good health I don't think he ever saw active service. I remember going in the E-Type.

I can only picture Victor and Queenie Bennett's house opposite the Mill: where was your house in relation to that? Did your father work in the Mill? The only name Gibbs that I remember was Dr Gibbs who lived on London Road. Any relation?

Perhaps the book about MvR was by Floyd Gibbons The Red Knight of Germany? That was one of the first biographies of him in English. original published in USA I think the English edition was in the '30s. Copies are available on AbeBooks for a reasonable price.

[Robert Gibbs]

Peter , Vic and Queenie were my maternal grandparents who lived at Holly House . I have today had lunch with Ann their younger daughter ( their elder June was my late Mother) who is 94 . What is your emeil address? 

Robert Gibbs

15/4/22

[kenf48]

 

 

1 hour ago, Robert Gibbs said:

Peter , Vic and Queenie were my maternal grandparents who lived at Holly House . I have today had lunch with Ann their younger daughter ( their elder June was my late Mother) who is 94 . What is your emeil address? 

We discourage posting email addresses on the GWF for obvious reasons.   It appears this is the second time we have had to edit a post.

As you have 2 posts you may contact the member using the GWF Personal Messaging system.  Just click on the avatar and then 'Send Message'.

[Robert Gibbs]

10 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

 

We discourage posting email addresses on the GWF for obvious reasons.   It appears this is the second time we have had to edit a post.

As you have 2 posts you may contact the member using the GWF Personal Messaging system.  Just click on the avatar and then 'Send Message'.

 

12 hours ago, Robert Gibbs said:

11 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

Thank you Kent48. What do you mean by the avatar? RG 16/4

We discourage posting email addresses on the GWF for obvious reasons.   It appears this is the second time we have had to edit a post.

As you have 2 posts you may contact the member using the GWF Personal Messaging system.  Just click on the avatar and then 'Send Message'.

Peter , Vic and Queenie were my maternal grandparents who lived at Holly House . I have today had lunch with Ann their younger daughter ( their elder June was my late Mother) who is 94 . What is your emeil address? 

Robert Gibbs

15/4/22

[kenf48]

The avatar is the picture members choose to identify themselves you have not chosen an picture therefore you have the default which is your initial ‘R’.

Just click on the name or anywhere in that box.

[Robert Gibbs]

Ok, tks . How do I then go "private" with PB so that we can exchange email addresses?

[kenf48]

You simply send a private message to the other member and include your email if they want to correspond outside the GWF an exchange emails up to them or you can carry on using the GWF Pm system which is not visible to anyone else 

[shall87]

On 15/04/2022 at 05:31, Gorrion said:

Yes, that would have been my uncle Aubrey, my father's middle brother. Born in 1898 and never in particularly good health I don't think he ever saw active service. I remember going in the E-Type.

I can only picture Victor and Queenie Bennett's house opposite the Mill: where was your house in relation to that? Did your father work in the Mill? The only name Gibbs that I remember was Dr Gibbs who lived on London Road. Any relation?

Perhaps the book about MvR was by Floyd Gibbons The Red Knight of Germany? That was one of the first biographies of him in English. original published in USA I think the English edition was in the '30s. Copies are available on AbeBooks for a reasonable price.

Hi Peter!

Thanks so much for all of the information you’ve shared about your father over the years. I know you said he passed away when you were 13, but what was your father like? I suppose he probably never talked about the war at all. Did he ever talk about why he chose to join the flyers and did he ever fly again after the war? Also, just out of curiosity how tall was he?  He looks like he was a bit on the short side based on the photos/films. Thanks for sharing!