Imperial German Artillery

[Cnock]

Inside barrel 42 cm Mörser

Cnock

[wyliecoyote]

Guys

It is a pleasant surprise to see that this thread was still rolling along! I was away for the weekend and just returned.

Cnock, nice photo of F.A.R. 31, (1. Unter-Elsässisches Feld-Artillerie-Regt. Nr.31

(Hagenau) XXI Armee Korps). Just look at the shine on their kugalhauben.

That recoil photo is a nice action photo, surprising they are not covering their ears.

The F.A.R. man from 1915,is the photo dated. The 42 cm was a monster, wow! Also, the barrel/breech block photo is pretty awesome too.

The battle in Messines, Belgium 1917, does anybody have any idea what type of artillery was used by the German Army to bombard the ANZAC troops on June 8th?

Geo

[wyliecoyote]

To keep the ball rolling, as was mentioned earlier, Feld Artillerie Regts. wore their feldrocks with Swedish cuffs. This group is an officer (on left with chin scales exposed) and his men of the Royal Saxon 5. Feld-Artillerie-Regt. Nr.64 (stationed in Pirna) XII Armee Korps. As with all artilleristen, they wear the kugelhaube (ball spike), and their helmet cover bears the cloth regimental numbers 64.

[bierast]

Another one of FAR 31, found in a Berlin flea market. Nothing on the back, sadly:

Unit ID - these are the M1915 shoulder straps, yellow numerals and bomb on red cloth (Fussartillerie had red on yellow, and crossed cannons instead of the bomb):

These are drivers (Fahrer), and therefore dressed as mounted troops, with riding trousers and boots and the cavalry-style belt buckle. Gunners (Kanonier) wore infantry tousers, boots and buckles.

Notice the leather-bodied fist strap (faustriemen) on the bayonet instead of the infantry-style troddel:

I know very little about bayonet models - can someone ID the above? I am working on a Feldartillerie 'living history' impression and am pondering what type of bayonet I may need.

Incidentally, the 1917 artillery manual I possess still states that in the Feldartillerie the authorised equipment of a Fahrer is a sword and revolver, that of a Kanonier a bayonet and a revolver or automatic pistol.

I have a lot of material on the Feldartillerie as it is my primary interest - I will endeavour to contribute further. I will be attempting to make some photographic copies from the above manual (which is too fragile to be laid flat on the scanner).

ARL

[wyliecoyote]

Andi

Thanks for joining the thread. I am not sure about the fellow that is standing, could both be the same, but the close-up of the bayonet of the fellow sitting appears to be a S98/05 "Butcher Blade". Hard for me to say what they would wear normally, depends what they were armed with. Most were armed with the Gew 91, which had no bayonet lug for fixing a bayonet to it.

There were artillery models made that were strictly sidearms, I'll check some references and see if I can come up with proper designations for you.

You also answered a question I was working up to, I have been confused about the fellows who are wearinf the mounted troops buckles, so it is the drivers!

Geo

[bierast]

Thanks for joining the thread. I am not sure about the fellow that is standing, could both be the same, but the close-up of the bayonet of the fellow sitting appears to be a S98/05 "Butcher Blade". Hard for me to say what they would wear normally, depends what they were armed with. Most were armed with the Gew 91, which had no bayonet lug for fixing a bayonet to it.

The manual suggests that the Feldartillerie men wouldn't have actually had rifles or carbines at all in the field (as opposed to in barracks, for guard duty) - though the basic Fussartillerie weapon is stated to be the rifle (or possibly carbine - I will check).

This also explains the reason for the development of the long-barreled, stocked artillery Luger - to provide men without rifles or carbines with some kind of longer-ranged personal firepower.

There were artillery models made that were strictly sidearms, I'll check some references and see if I can come up with proper designations for you.

I think I've seen these (very long) models in photos...they were described to me by a fellow at Beltring earlier this year whose bayonets I was browsing with a view to my impression.

You also answered a question I was working up to, I have been confused about the fellows who are wearinf the mounted troops buckles, so it is the drivers!

It took me a while to work this one out as well, but it is consistent with photographic evidence. The manual places strong emphasis on this distinction between fahrer and kanonier... though I have photos of my GGF apparently dressed for both roles at different times.

Btw, I presume you've seen this excellent site? An absolute gold mine of information on German artillery, especially the Fussartillerie. This page is especially enlightening for its detailed descriptions of all the targeting apparatus and how it was used, as well as some exceedingly useful lists of all extant Fussartillerie formations in August 1914 and October 1918, with details of what they were armed with.

I am currently translating the 1917 section of the history of FAR48, a very laborious but fascinating process. I'm hoping to take a week off in the autumn to start assembling my massive quantity of notes and documents into a website dedicated to the regiment and the divisions with which it served.

ARL

[bierast]

To keep the ball rolling, as was mentioned earlier, Feld Artillerie Regts. wore their feldrocks with Swedish cuffs. This group is an officer (on left with chin scales exposed) and his men of the Royal Saxon 5. Feld-Artillerie-Regt. Nr.64 (stationed in Pirna) XII Armee Korps. As with all artilleristen, they wear the kugelhaube (ball spike), and their helmet cover bears the cloth regimental numbers 64.

Ah...several carbines in this picture! So I can't be wholly correct on this one...

Saxon Feldartillerie retained several Saxon distinctions despite adopting the Swedish cuff in the 19th century (they had originally worn the distinctive Saxon or 'German' cuff) - namely, the special Saxon straight back flaps and the red piping around the bottom edge of the skirt. Saxon Fussartillerie continued to wear the Saxon cuff. Note that this plate shows the pre-1915 shoulder straps with Corps-coloured piping as per the infantry. The richtkanonier left arm badges were worn by qualified gun-layers.

[wyliecoyote]

Andi

That is a cool site, I need to check it out. Yes, those carbines are Gewehr 91's, notice the stacking hooks? These were used clear up until 1918. Check out the Gew 91 webpage on this site, Commission Rifle:

http://groups.msn.com/CommissionRifle/gewehr911.msnw

The first post in this thread you can see their Gew 91's stacked at bottem right.

These two men are also armed with Gew 91 carbines. Always wondered why a Karabiner 88 with a stacking hook ended up being designated Gewehr 91, ( Rifle 91). They must be drivers, they are wearing mounted troops belt buckles. Sorry about the scan, the stacking hooks are visable in the photo.

[Cnock]

German artillery on the move in 1917

The gun sems to be a 15 cm schwere Feld Haubitze 02, some artillerists are armed with Karabiner 98a.

Cnock

[Cnock]

Reserve Feld Artillery Rgt nr. 51

Kanonier Wimmel in 1915

Regards,

Cnock

[bierast]

Reserve Feld Artillery Rgt nr. 51

Kanonier Wimmel in 1915

Excellent! A rare sighting of the regulation sword (and pistol - just about visible under his arm).

[bierast]

Unknown FAR, 11/1915 (sadly, the shoulder straps are illegible even with magnification):

Note typical use of the old pre-feldgrau coloured uniforms for training on the home front.

[Cnock]

Prussian Kugelhaube mod 1915 and artillery sword

Cnock

[Cnock]

Feld Artillery

Regards,

Cnock

[Cnock]

15 cm gun foot artillery

Cnock

[wyliecoyote]

Wow Eddy!

Is that kugelhelm a M1905/06?

The photos are nice too, those 15 cm look like something no one wants to be on the receiving end of.

Andi. this fellow from Gonsenheim, he would be a driver then?

The 1. Nassauisches Feld-Artillerie-Regt. Nr.27 was home stationed at Mainz/Wiesbaden (XVIII Armee Korps).

[apwright]

Unknown FAR, 11/1915 (sadly, the shoulder straps are illegible even with magnification):

Note typical use of the old pre-feldgrau coloured uniforms for training on the home front.

Interesting!

The man in your picture is quite possibly Walter WIEGHARDT, great-grandfather of the present managing director of painters/decorators Wieghardt & Sohn GmbH, in Lüdenscheid. See wieghardt.de > Wir über uns > Geschichte. The firm was founded by Walter's father Carl in 1891.

Your card is addressed to

Familie

C. Wieghardt (so either his father or his brother's family - both were Carl)

Lüdenscheid

Grabenstr.

The message appears to be in reply to a query about what to do with some documents he left at home:

Viele Grüße sendet

Euch Euer Walter.

Wie gefalle

ich Euch. Nächstens

mehr. Laßt die

Papiere dort. Nähers

folgt. Muß von

dort eingereicht

werden.

Greetings from your Walter. How do you like me? [i.e. How do I look in the photo?] More soon. Leave the papers there. Details to follow. [The paperwork] must be submitted from there.

I'm pretty sure that the renowned artist Paul Wieghardt (born 1897 in Lüdenscheid, died 1969 in Wilmette IL, USA) was another brother of Walter. His biography on German Wikipedia says his father was a Master Painter.

For more info, you could try writing to Wieghardt & Sohn GmbH at the e-mail addresses shown on their Kontakt page. They seem very proud of their long history!

Adrian

[Paul Hederer]

Cnock,

Just out of curiosity are you watermarking your photos to show ownership, or just to show that you posted them? I've never quite understood the practice. Some of the photos you've done this with I've seen in books, so I'm curious why this is done.

Paul

[Cnock]

Paul,

the scans I showed here are from the original photo, NOT from books.

In fact I could have put my name on every scan.

I noticed my pics appearing on other websites and forums without source been given.

Regards,

Cnock

[Paul Hederer]

Paul,

the scans I showed here are from the original photo, NOT from books.

In fact I could have put my name on every scan.

I noticed my pics appearing on other websites and forums without source been given.

Regards,

Cnock

Wow, that must be a unique situation owning original photos that were published already. The exact picture of the s. 15 cm K is also in I/RFusa14 history.

Paul

[wyliecoyote]

Paul

As you know I collect old photos. I know that when the postcards were made, (not talking about the commercial ones), that several were made for the men to send to friends & relatives. I have bought several that I have seen doubles for from different sellers at different times. One is of a Landwehrman, and after the initial surprise wore off, I was actually glad, as the second one I came across had a date and location, so I ended up being able to identify the photo as being in Belgien, 1915. Identical photo in every detail.

Recently I bid on one I recognized immediately as being in a book I own, and when I broke out my copy of "German Uniforms & Bayonets 1841-1945" by Klaus Lubbe, there it was listed as Bild 123, page 68. It is of the shortest & Tallest soldaten of I.R. 60. The book I bought back in 2002, copywrite 1999, and I saw the very same photo for sale this year. Granted, everybody in that Regiment could have sent home several to the folks back home. Identical in evry detail.

Also, Charles Wooley, author of "Uniforms & Equipment of the Imperial German Army 1900 - 1918", offered up photos used in his books for sale. That was an aweful lot of photos. ( Both excellant photo books, I recommend them to any one). I own more than a few that were used in " A Collector's Guide to the German Gew. 88 "Commission" Rifle by Paul S. Scarlata, another fine book, probably the single best book on the subject to date.

To sum it all up, (unless that particular photo was one of those small ones you find in a personal photo album), and it is instead a postcard photo, I am not at all shocked when I see one I saw published some where else. I am not familiar with the history of which you speak. My two cents, I am getting down off my soapbox now. I apologize for getting off topic. I am not trying to bust chops or take sides. Just thought I would share what little I know.

George

[wyliecoyote]

Andi

I checked my reference book, German Sidearms & bayonets by Klaus Lubbe, and the Artillerie bayonets appear to be for the Foot Artillery for the most part. I checked my artillery photos, and with exception of swords, I don't see any Feld-Artillerie wearing any bayonets. Looks like I learned something new today!

You can check my photos here.

[bob lembke]

Andi;

Adrian's information is great and will probably nail down your identification. My German geography is terrible and I don't know where the town in the address was, but a useful clue is the fact that the postcard has no Absender Block, as required by Prussian military postal regulations from very early in the war. I can't recall seeing a single Prussian Feldpost PC without an Absender Block. However, the Bavarian authorities did not require it, and perhaps other states as well.

Sometimes I run my mouth rapidly with my brain in neutral. Looking at the PC again, it was mailed at a civilian post office. I am sure that I have seen Prussian PCs mailed at civilian post offices with the Absender Block, but perhaps that was done out of habit, and the civilians did not require it. The PC was going from a civilian post office to a civilian address. Was Mainz in the Prussian Rhineland?

Bob Lembke

[bob lembke]

Andi;

The Lovett site you posted is interesting. I once contacted them. In my fair city, Philadelphia, in a middle class neighborhood with detached houses and lawns, I came across a house with a WW II German 75 mm PAK on the front lawn, painted purple! I contacted the Lovetts, thinking of a rescue effort, but they told me that they already had one. I wonder if it is still there. This was about five years ago. (We Americans do {mostly} believe in owning our firearms.)

Bob Lembke

[Paul Hederer]

George,

I'm curious about the practice of watermaking. I see it on a lot of Verdun websites epecially, I guess implying that people stealing images is a problem. I've also seen guys do it (a lot) with photos that have been published before, claiming some type of ownership. I had asked before and been told by one of these fellows that he "owned" the image, which I don't think is correct if I can go down to library and make a photocopy of the same image out of a book that is itself out of copyright. It's an interesting topic, and deserves it's own thread, if it hasn't been covered before.

The image is of 2./RFusa14, which converted to s. 15 cm K's mid-September 1915.

Paul