Battle Honours

[PhilB]

I`ve recently been reading about Laing`s Nek and Majuba Hill, both calamitous losses for the British Army at the hands of the Boers. For neither action was a battle honour awarded. Which made me wonder about battle honours in general and WW1 in particular. How does an action qualify for a battle honour? Is it a recognition of battle success or honourable conduct by the men irrespective of the result? Are there any well known WW1 actions that did not merit a battle honour?

[truthergw]

I believe it is decided by a committee as is the names and extents of battles, affairs, actions etc.

[MartH]

I think units where rationed in certain conflicts to the number they could claim.

[PhilB]

I believe so but presumably they have some kind of remit or guidelines. I wonder if Gen Colley being killed at Majuba had any influence in that they wouldn`t embarrass the commander by refusing a batle honour? Which are the "missing" WW1 battles?

[ulsterlad2]

In EA James:

The Battles Nomenclature Committee was taskd to classify the times and geographical limits of each action.

After that, the Regimental Committees had to work out which battalions then qualified.

To qualify for an Honour, a battalion had to have its HQ + 50% of its strength within the boundaries set by the BNC.

The War Office then had to approve this list of Honours.

[PhilB]

In order to ascertain which WW1 actions didn`t qualify for an honour, I`d like to find a full list of honours - preferably online. Anyone know a way?

[Ron Clifton]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Aug 14 2008, 09:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In order to ascertain which WW1 actions didn`t qualify for an honour, I`d like to find a full list of honours - preferably online. Anyone know a way?

Phil

As someone else has already pointed out, battles do not qualify for battle honours: units do.

A complete list of the battle honours awarded to each rgiment in WW1 was published with Army Orders for February 1925 and reprinted in 1992 by Ray Westlake.

The Report of the Battles Nomenclature Committee which describes the process and lists all the actions, has been republished, also in 1992, by Naval & Military Press.

Battle Honours of the British and Commonwealth Armies, by Anthony Baker, was published by Ian Allan Ltd in 1986. It also gives an overview of the various campaigns and a list of the regiments present at each, also noting the few cases where a regiment was not awarded the honour for some reason.

Prior to the Great War, battle honours were only given for victories so Fontenoy 1745, for instance, does not qualify. Other defeats could be subsumed in a wider victorious campaign e.g. Zulu War 1879 instead of Isandhlwana, and South Africa 1899-1902 covers Laing's Nek and Majuba Hill.

Online? Try eBay!

Ron

[PhilB]

As someone else has already pointed out, battles do not qualify for battle honours: units do.

Ron

Thanks Ron. Does that mean that a unit can claim an honour for any WW1 action (as listed by the Battles Nomenclature Committee) at which they were deemed present? No action is deemed unworthy of an honour, as was Laing`s Nek?

[1st AIF]

Fromelles was the most costly battle in Australian history for a single division. In one night the 5th Division lost over 5,000 men. It was reported by Haig as an important raid where about 100 German prisoners were taken.

Fromelles does not appear on any regimental colours as a battle honour.

Len

[PhilB]

I wondered about Fromelles. Presumably it`s listed as an official action - why can`t it be claimed as a battle honour?

[Ron Clifton]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Aug 14 2008, 11:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Ron. Does that mean that a unit can claim an honour for any WW1 action (as listed by the Battles Nomenclature Committee) at which they were deemed present? No action is deemed unworthy of an honour, as was Laing`s Nek?

Phil

As to the first point, see ulsterlad2's posting. A unit could claim an honour if it was within the geographical boundaries: whether the War Office would award the honour depended on what the regiment had actually contributed.

As to the second point, Laing's Nek was not a victory and so no honour was awarded. As in life, there are no prizes for finishing last, however hard and bravely you try.

However, the Royal Artillery has obtained permission to have honour titles granted to some of its batteries for distinguished work irrespective of the overall result of the battle. The RA itself only has one battle honour, "Ubique", everywhere.

Ron

[cahoehler]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Aug 14 2008, 10:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

. . . to find a full list of honours - preferably online . . .

Phil

The South African Heavy Artillery Battle Honours are summarized here

http://www.warpath.orbat.com/contributions/0002.htm

A full list is ambitious but maybe the queries and 'problems' . . .

Carl

[cahoehler]

. . . rationed . . .

Mart

Units could only display the TEN that the unit selected.

Carl

[Chris_Baker]

It was reported by Haig as an important raid where about 100 German prisoners were taken.

Not quite, Len.

According to Australian Official Historian Charles Bean "In accordance with the policy at this time adopted by GHQ, the severity of this reverse, though of course well known to the German Army and people, was concealed from the British public in the official communiqué: 'Yesterday evening, south of Armentieres, we carried out some important raids on a front of two miles in which Australian troops took part. About 14 German prisoners were captured'.

Official communiques come from the War Office, not the commander in chief in the field, even if the information originated there.

[Ron Clifton]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Aug 14 2008, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wondered about Fromelles. Presumably it`s listed as an official action - why can`t it be claimed as a battle honour?

It is covered by "Somme 1916". The BNC report already referred to mentions, under Actions etc, "and subsidiary Attack on Fromelles." It was not the "Battle of Fromelles", despite what Wikipedia says.

The use of the word "Attack" reinforces that it was not successful, and hence no separate honour was awarded. I do not dispute that the Australians fought hard and bravely but a battle honour was normally awarded only for successful actions. "Retreat from Mons" only qualifies somewhat tenuously in this connection, I admit!

Ron

[Chris_Baker]

In fact, it was for years - prior to BNC officialdom - known as the Battle of Fleurbaix.

[truthergw]

This little intraforum discussion illustrates why an official decision has to be made as to the extent, physically and in time, of what I will call, ' battles '. Anyone who looks at the history through the war of the area between Armentieres and Richebourg St Vaast will see that there were endless battles and almost nonstop fighting for much of the war. An artificial division can only be arbitrary and is bound to throw up some anomalies. A unit engaged half a mile to the east of a line on the map, a man killed the day after a date marked on the calendar will be quite unfairly denied a part in a battle which will be named from a feature on the map which seems significant to the committee. I suppose the Battle of Duck's Bill or the Action of The Pope's Nose may lack gravitas but they might have been more meaningful to the men who fought there.

[dycer]

Tom and All,

Each Battalion has it's own list of engagements which were recognised.

So the "petty" engagements are recognised by the Battalions that took part e.g.The 8th Royal Scots record Pilchem Ridge,Steenbeck and Menin Road as their engagements during the 3rd Battle of Ypres,I'm sure the other Battalions who participated will record different engagements during the Battle but the Regimental Colurs only,as advised by the Committee, record Ypres.

I agree,of course,that the constant attrition that carried on throughout the War is not recorded as an Honour and in a way leads to the many questions on the Forum"Which Battle did my Relative die in?" when it is more likely he died "holding the line"

George

[SteveE]

South Africa 1899-1902 covers Laing's Nek and Majuba Hill.

I think you'll find that South Africa 1899-1902 is about twenty years too late . No Battle honours were awarded for the 1st Anglo-Boer War.

Steve

[bluedog]

As mentioned in the above posts , Fromelles is not even named in the battles in which the AIF took

part in on the surrounding wall of the Australian National Memorial at Villers-Bret.

Peter

[SteveE]

According to Anthony Baker's "Battle Honours of the British and Commonwealth Armies" only the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry applied, unsuccessfully, for Fromelles as a Battle Honour.

[Ron Clifton]

I think you'll find that South Africa 1899-1902 is about twenty years too late . No Battle honours were awarded for the 1st Anglo-Boer War.

Steve

Oops! Egg on face - I was lumping them in with Colenso etc.

Thanks Steve.

Ron

[bantamforgot]

The book "A companion to the British Army 1660/1983" by David Ascoli is a great source regarding Battle Honours . Does any member know if David Ascoli is still around ?

Colin