Is this an Austrian POW Hospital at Deutsch Gabel?

[Dagwood]

This photo shows George Burke (arrowed), my Grandfather, in what appears to be a hospital. This is a poor quality photocopy of an original picture in the possession of some Canadian relatives. Although they have written 1917 on the photo, I'm 99% certain he was shot and gassed during the Austrian attack on British positions at Asiago on 15 June 1918. George Burke was a gunner in 58 Bty, 35 Brigade RFA, they had been posted to Italy the previous autumn. My Great-Grandmother wrote to the War Office to tell them that George was being held prisoner at `Deutch Gabel' Bohemia Austria, I believe this was Terezin POW camp at Deutsch Gabel, which was used for Italian, French, British and Russian POWs.

My question is what uniform is the man on the left wearing, could he be an Austrian soldier?

Stephen

[bob lembke]

This photo shows George Burke (arrowed), my Grandfather, in what appears to be a hospital. This is a poor quality photocopy of an original picture in the possession of some Canadian relatives. Although they have written 1917 on the photo, I'm 99% certain he was shot and gassed during the Austrian attack on British positions at Asiago on 15 June 1918. George Burke was a gunner in 58 Bty, 35 Brigade RFA, they had been posted to Italy the previous autumn. My Great-Grandmother wrote to the War Office to tell them that George was being held prisoner at `Deutch Gabel' Bohemia Austria, I believe this was Terezin POW camp at Deutsch Gabel, which was used for Italian, French, British and Russian POWs.

My question is what uniform is the man on the left wearing, could he be an Austrian soldier?

Stephen

There are only a few uniform details apparent on the uniform on the left, but I have to say that they do not match similar details on German uniforms. I know lots less about Austro-Hungarian uniforms, but they additionally do not match what little I know of Austro-Hungarian infantry uniforms. Beware, lots of people wore uniforms, the guy could be Red Cross, or the postman, not a soldier.

You seem to know enough about g-f Burke that some of the students of the British Army on the Forum might be able to find out more about what happened to him, when, etc.

Was Bohemia in Austria? Ended up in Czechoslovakia after WW I, but possibly it was pried off of Austria proper when Czechoslovakia was formed and cobbled into the new state. Caused a bit of trouble a bit down the line.

Bob Lembke

[Dagwood]

There are only a few uniform details apparent on the uniform on the left, but I have to say that they do not match similar details on German uniforms. I know lots less about Austro-Hungarian uniforms, but they additionally do not match what little I know of Austro-Hungarian infantry uniforms. Beware, lots of people wore uniforms, the guy could be Red Cross, or the postman, not a soldier.

You seem to know enough about g-f Burke that some of the students of the British Army on the Forum might be able to find out more about what happened to him, when, etc.

Was Bohemia in Austria? Ended up in Czechoslovakia after WW I, but possibly it was pried off of Austria proper when Czechoslovakia was formed and cobbled into the new state. Caused a bit of trouble a bit down the line.

Bob Lembke

Bob

Thank you for the information, I'll follow up your hint about the uniform possibly being non-military. I've got another photo of a soldier in an `odd' uniform which I'll post shortly.

My Grandfather's family could never understand why he knew some Italian, and said he'd been with Russian POWs during WWI. All was revealed when I got his records from the NA, and found he'd been with the 7th Division in Italy! I'm off to Asiago in two week's time to do some sleuthing over there, and hope to find out a bit more about where he was fighting.

best regards

Stephen

[bob lembke]

Bob

Thank you for the information, I'll follow up your hint about the uniform possibly being non-military. I've got another photo of a soldier in an `odd' uniform which I'll post shortly.

My Grandfather's family could never understand why he knew some Italian, and said he'd been with Russian POWs during WWI. All was revealed when I got his records from the NA, and found he'd been with the 7th Division in Italy! I'm off to Asiago in two week's time to do some sleuthing over there, and hope to find out a bit more about where he was fighting.

best regards

Stephen

I don't think that the British ever got there, but a lot of the fighting on that front took place in what is now Slovenija, a bit to the east. I have spent a good deal of time there, and it is really quite a nice place, perhaps less expensive than Italy, etc. (Say a year ago we had a thread or two on this.) I probably drove thru Kobarid in Slovenija right by Italy eight times before I realized that it was the Caparetto described in A Farewell to Arms. (Have you read it?) There is an award-winning WW I museum in Kobarid. Probably more Slovenes speak English than Italians do. But of course where your g-f fought was further west a bit. If there is a chance that you might end up there I could give you more tips, and a nice excursion or two. Do you like mountains? The mountains there are the Julian Alps, which Julius Cesear modestly named after himself.

As to the "guy on the left", the collar lace may indicate that he was a NCO, at least in the German Army, while A-H infantry NCOs had one, two, or three stars on each side of the collar. Also, isn't the top device on the cap a triangle? If so that seems unusual and it may tell a lot.

Bob

[De Morlaix]

Stephen AKA Dagwood,

I was just online searching for 'Deutsch-Gabel' because as of today I have in my posession 3 banknotes issued for use in the Deutch-Gabel POW camp (Kriegsgefangenenlager). One of 20 Heller and two of 10 Heller each. I'm English but live in Saxony, not very far from what is now the Czech border and what was then Sudetenland of which Deutsch-Gabel was a part (in fact the town is still called that I believe, at least in German).

I can't find any information at all on what kind of facilities were at Deutsch-Gabel or exactly whom these notes were issued for. It says on them that the amounts will be paid to the holder upon release and that they are not public legal tender. They are also marked K.U.K Kommando.

Does anyone know who these notes were issued for? Was there a POW camp at Deutsch-Gabel or was it just a hospital...a secure hospital?? It is likely that your grandfather George Burke would have spent notes like these?

[Dagwood]

Stephen AKA Dagwood,

I was just online searching for 'Deutsch-Gabel' because as of today I have in my posession 3 banknotes issued for use in the Deutch-Gabel POW camp (Kriegsgefangenenlager). One of 20 Heller and two of 10 Heller each. I'm English but live in Saxony, not very far from what is now the Czech border and what was then Sudetenland of which Deutsch-Gabel was a part (in fact the town is still called that I believe, at least in German).

I can't find any information at all on what kind of facilities were at Deutsch-Gabel or exactly whom these notes were issued for. It says on them that the amounts will be paid to the holder upon release and that they are not public legal tender. They are also marked K.U.K Kommando.

Does anyone know who these notes were issued for? Was there a POW camp at Deutsch-Gabel or was it just a hospital...a secure hospital?? It is likely that your grandfather George Burke would have spent notes like these?

I found the following bits of information on various websites, I'll try to find the correct references for them:

`Deutsch Gabel (German Fork) was a DISTRICT CENTER TOWN = Nemecke (German) Jablonne = now Jablonne v Podjestedi. '

`During WW1 timeframe the only GARRISON & PRISON I could find in this immediate area, Bohemia, was in Terezin>Deutsh Gabel District/Jablonne District. The town was named after Joseph's II mother, Empress Maria Theresa. Two massive strongholds were built in 1780 by Emperor Joseph II as a state-of-the-art bulwark against the Prussians, but they never saw any action. In the 19th century the town within the Main Fortress was made a garrison, while the so-called Lesser Fortress was used as a jail and a WWI prisoner-of-war camp.'

Terezin was the camp in which Franz Princip was held up to his death in 1918. In WWII it was a notorious concentration camp, and I believe there is monument commemorating this at the camp today. During WWI I believe it was used for French, Italian, Russian, and British POWs which accords with my Grandfather's accounts of being with Russian prisoners. My Father has mentioned seing some `odd' banknotes, but I thought these came from his brother, I'll make further enquiries.

regards

Stephen

[De Morlaix]

Most of that I'd already found out I'm afraid. I thought that these notes (pictures attached of a reverse and obverse) could be WWII, but the absence of any Nazi symbols and the style in comparison to some 1920s German notes I've seen leads me to believe that these are WWI.

I'd like to find out if the whole of the town (i.e. the large fortress) used these notes. Surely they wouldn't issue notes for just the smaller fortress/prison, or perhaps they did. I've found pictures of identical notes on a Czech auction website and they were only sold for a few quid so the value for these rather tatty ones is likely to be low.

But there really is nothing online with information about the dates these were issued, the number that were issued and exactly where they circulated and what they were used for. Even the Czech website had not attempted to guess an issue date. These 3 I have are very well circulated so they must have seen quite a bit of use.

The text on the back translates something like:

The amount shown on this voucher will be paid in cash to the prisoner of war upon release, or transferred in the event of a transfer to another camp.

Then, in the circle it says:

Not for public payment (basically, not legal tender outside Deutsch-Gabel).

[Dagwood]

I've checked a few sites to clarify some of the information I put in an earlier post. The information on one site suggested that Deutsch Gabel and Terezin (Theresienstad) were linked, or the same, however this isn't correct. The following site http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/powcamps.htm lists Austrian POW camps with the ranks and nationalities in them, plus the units guarding them. In the Leitmeritz area it lists the following camps Braunau (Bohmen), Theresienstad (Terezin), Brux (incl. Dux), Deutschgabel (Jablonné v Podještědí), Reichenberg, Milowitz, and Josefstadt. According to the site Deutschgabel took French, British and Russian POWs, and these were guarded by the k.k. LdstWachBaon Nr.10.

Apologies for any confusion caused.

[bob lembke]

Note the "k. u. k." notation on the bottom note (the other one probably has it on the other side); this meant "kaiserlich und koeniglich", or "emperorish and kinglish" (pardon the humor); a phrase referring to the Austrian Emperor and the Hungarian King, a term that made no sense after November 1918. So absolutely WW I notes.

Bob Lembke

[De Morlaix]

I think the KUK would probably translate correctly as 'Imperial and Royal'! I didn't know what KUK was, and you're right of course, it confirms them as WWI 'vouchers'.

So this was an Austrian POW camp in what was then the Bohemian (Slavic speaking) area of the Hapsburg empire....never actually Austria. That's interesting isn't it because it's so easy to assume that anything WWI and in German, is German! And thanks Dagwood for giving the Czech name as Jablonné v Podještědí. I'll try to find more about it from the Czech name.

I'm a coin dealer and I got these 'vouchers' with some coins sent for me to purchase from England. It's purely coincidence that I am probably only about an hours drive from the place that issued them.

[Dagwood]

I've done some more online digging and found out a bit more on Jablonné v Podještědí. If you go to the town's website there's a section on its history in Czech, the relevant bit appears to be:

`Osobitým způsobem zasáhla do osudů měst 1. svět. válka, kdy již od listopadu 1914 byl na okraji města (v místech dnešního koupaliště) vybudován tábor, ve kterém byli internováni převážně Rusové (celkem 14 000). Smutnou vzpomínkou na toto období je ruský hřbitov v obci Lada v Podještědí, na němž byli pochováni vojáci z Haličské ukrajinské brigády, kteří zde byli v roce 1919 internováni.

Poválečný vývoj Jablonné v Podještědí se příliš nelišil od ostatních městeček v pohraničí. Byl zahájen pokusem o odtržení pohraničních území a zřízení tzv. Provincie Deutschböhmen, v jejíž zemské vládě byl i zdejší rodák Kraus. Konec této epizody učinil až příchod československého vojska do Jablonného v prosinci roku 1918. Ke konci druhé světové války přicházeli do Jablonného uprchlíci jak z východních území, tak i z rozbombardovaného Německa. Poválečná léta byla pro město obdobím velkých změn. Po odsunu většiny Němců se zcela změnilo národnostní složení obyvatel města a okolí. V krátké době se oživil společenský život, ve městě vznikly či obnovily činnost různé spolky a jednoty. Počátkem padesátých let nastaly velké změny v hospodářské sféře – tradiční textilní továrny byly zrušeny a jejich místo zaujal sklářský podnik Preciosa.'

I've put this through an online service which has translated the first 1000 characters as:

`Osobitým be hit by destiny cities 1st world. war, which since November 1914 was on the edge of town (in places today's swimming pool) built camp in which were interned mostly Russians (14, 000). Smutnou remembrance of this period, the Russian cemetery in the village Lada in Podještědí, where they were buried Haličské Ukrainian soldiers from the brigade who were interned in 1919. Poválečný development Jablonne v Podjestedi too different from the other towns in the border area. He started trying to tear the border areas and the establishment of the so-called Deutschböhmen Province, in the Provincial Government was local native Kraus. End of the episodes made to the arrival Czechoslovak army in Jablonného in December of 1918. At the end of the Second World War came to Jablonného refugees from the eastern territory, as well as rozbombardovaného Germany. Post-war years was the city period major changes. Following the redeployment of most Germans are completely changed the ethnic composition of inhabitants of the city and its environs.'

I take this to mean that the POW camp was built in November 1914 on a site on the edge of town which is today where the swimming pool is (apologies to any Czech speakers if this is totally wrong)!

The site has a collection of historic postcards at http://www.jablonnevp.cz/?menu=178, but none of the WWI POW camp!

It looks like a nice area so I'm starting the sales pitch on my partner, let's go to Venice and spend a couple of days at Asiago was easy, perhaps Prague followed by Jablonne?

Stephen

[bob lembke]

I think the KUK would probably translate correctly as 'Imperial and Royal'! I didn't know what KUK was, and you're right of course, it confirms them as WWI 'vouchers'.

I was joking above, in my "translation", as I explicitly said, but we both are correct, in different senses. But k. u. k. should not be capitalized.

So this was an Austrian POW camp in what was then the Bohemian (Slavic speaking) area of the Hapsburg empire....never actually Austria. That's interesting isn't it because it's so easy to assume that anything WWI and in German, is German! And thanks Dagwood for giving the Czech name as Jablonné v Podještědí. I'll try to find more about it from the Czech name.

I will offer the following with reluctance, as it might ignite WW III. Up till 1945, on the area of Czechoslovakia, in the 20th Century, the ethnic mix was, by size of the population, Czech, then German, and then Slovak, and then forty different ethnicities. As Bohemia was the most western of the five regions (I think) of the area, and the further west you got the higher the proportion of ethnic Germans, and also German speakers, and since ethnic Slavs in the area (mostly Czechs and Slovaks, but also tens of other groups), up to 1918, had more motivation to also speak German than the ethnic Germans had to alco speak a Slavic language, I would guess that, up to 1918, about 80% of the population of Bohemia spoke German, and say 65-70% spoke one or another of several Slavic languages (Czech, Slovak, Polish, Ruthenian, Slovene, etc.). So it is not accurate to define Bohemia as the "Slavic speaking area of the Hasburg Empire", many other parts of the Empire had much higher percentages of Slavic speakers. Some sections of Bohemia were overwhelmingly populated by ethnic Germans; e.g., the Sudetenland. After 1918 and the creation of Czechoslovakia some ethnic Germans moved west to Austria, and north to Germany, and after 1945 the vast majority of the remaining ethnic Germans fled west or were killed.

If you want to get a good feel for the linguistic goulash that the A-H Empire was, and enjoy a delightful read, get one of the Biggins books on A-H and the Great War. Some A-H officers found it necessary to learn six or eight languages to be able to speak to their enlisted men during their career and different postings.

Bob Lembke

[De Morlaix]

We weren't right in difference senses. Your version was incorrect in all senses and I was correct! But it wasn't a bad idea to do a literal translation using the 'lich' in German to mean something like 'ish' in English, just for fun. And we all like to have fun sometimes.

My German is fluent but I don't know any Czech at all. Actually I'm going over the border this Friday to sell a headlight, but that's quite off topic!

You're no doubt right that German was the main language in Bohemia back then, in fact most of the older people are still able to speak very good German, much better than the younger Czechs that obviously do it at school but don't have to deal with it daily like the older people did.

Actually, another interesting fact that I heard/read is that in the Czech language the name for the country and the Czech word for Bohemia are the same word. I don't know how it was then, but I think Karolyvary region is further west, which may have been called Morovia in the past....that's without checking. And Plzen region is also in the modern West bordering Bavaria. The town of Plzen is where the 'Pils' comes from in relation to beer.

We went to Prague a couple of years ago, very nice. If you have a car though, make sure it is parked in a watched parking lot. They have very high car theft crime over there. And don't forget your motorway vignette or you'll have to pay a hefty fine (like in Austria).

And if you want to visit Prague on the cheap it's probably cheaper to fly (assuming you're in GB) from Stansted to Altenberg-Leipzig in Germany via Ryanair, get a hire car and drive down. Happy to help arrange things if you need more local assistance. Anglophones are always welcome here, it's makes a nice change!

This is all very off topic, I appologise for my rambling. Stephen, if you have interest in these 3 notes I have, PM me.