"Gunner" - Officer or rating

[Greg Bloomfield]

I'm doing a little research on Joseph Henry Burton, HMS Tower, who was killed aged 40 on 01 12 17. A local memorial has him down as being awarded the DSC (obviously an officer's decoration) but 'Gunner' sounds more of a rating than an officer appointment and the Commonwealth site doesn't elaborate any.

Can any expert confirm or deny this please. The roll of honour at the club is riddled with mistakes of all kinds and I'd like to get to the bottom of this one. And can anybody tell me what 'Tower' was up to on 01 12 17.

Many Thanks

Greg

[per ardua per mare per terram]

In the Navy Gunner was a warrant rank, so just as a WO in the army was elligable for the MC in the Navy they qualified for the DSC. Both his officer's and rating's service registers are available online:

Name Burton, Joseph Henry Date of Birth: 25 March 1877 Rank: Acting Gunner Date (? of opening file) 20 June 1908

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

Name Burton, Joseph Henry Official Number: 174860 Place of Birth: Saint Peters, Nottingham Date of Birth: 25 March 1877

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...F=ADM+188%2F287

He might have served in one of the colonial wars, but you'd have to cross reference his list of ships for that.

[centurion]

Could it be an error for Gunnery Officer? This was a function rather than a rank but usually held by a commissioned officer (the exact rank being dependant of the size of ship - on a first class battleship he could be a commander) usually referred to as Guns.

[centurion]

HMS Tower was certainly up to something on that day as Donald Fairfax Mackeson is recorded as lost overboard from her on that date. She was a destroyer with the Harwich force so if your man was the gunnery officer he'd be a Lt.

[joseph]

Greg,

Gunner is a Warrant Officer Royal Navy, and likely the senior Gunnery Officer onboard a destroyer.

Regards Charles

[Jim Clay]

Could it be an error for Gunnery Officer? This was a function rather than a rank but usually held by a commissioned officer (the exact rank being dependant of the size of ship - on a first class battleship he could be a commander) usually referred to as Guns.

As per ardua... says, Gunner was a Warrant rank. Here's a snip of Gunner(T) A.F. Shackleton's record:

He joined as a boy in 1905 and was promoted from PO in Aug 1914. He was the subject of this thread which included a wealth of wonderful photos of Warrant Officers through the years from the collection of Bryan (RNCVR) - sadly, the pics have all disappeared . Gunner Shackleton's pic was reposted in this thread.

Jim

[centurion]

Yes Jim we all know that gunner is a WO but in trying to explain the discrepancy with the DSC I was suggesting that someone looking after the roll of honour or what ever might have got confused between the term gunnery officer which was a role for a commissioned officer and gunner which is a rank and mislabeled the guy. So if someone had said "He was Tower's gunnery officer" he could have misunderstood and put gunner on the record.

[Jim Clay]

True, centurion, true.

[joseph]

Unlike the Army a Warrant Officer in the Navy was classed as an Officer and in the Rank and Command of Officers, a Warrant Officer in the army was in the Rank and Command of WO's, NCO's and men.

There is no discrepancy with the DSC, a Gunner is entitled.

Regards Charles

[historydavid]

Greg, the Admiralty record for your man's death:

BURTON, JOSEPH H., GUNNER, H.M. Destroyer TOWER, 01-Dec-1, DROWNING.

centurian, the Admiralty record for your man's death:

MACKESON, DONALD F., LT (acting), H.M. Destroyer TOWER, 01-Dec-17, DROWNING.

Whatever else caused these two men to drown, it was not enemy action.

Best wishes

David

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Could it be an error for Gunnery Officer?

Burton's officer's service record, as previously mentioned in my post 2, opens showing him with the Acting Rank of Gunner, so it is unlikely to be an error.

The Conspicuous Service Cross was specifically instituted to reward warrant officers: ‘Whereas we are of opinion that there should exist some means of recognising Distinguished Service before the Enemy on the part of Warrant Officers or Subordinate Officers of Your Majesty’s Fleet who by reason of not holding a Commission in the Royal Navy, are not eligible for appointment to any existing Order or Decoration.’ Dated 15 June 1901, wording from PE Abbott & JMA Tamplin, British Gallantry Awards, (Seaby, London, 1971). Of the 8 originally awarded 3 were to Gunners. The cross was renamed the Distinguished Service Cross by Order in Council 14 October 1914, when it was also extended to Officers up to the rank of Lieutenant Commander.

The easiest way to solve a dispute over a gallantry medal is to look in the London Gazette and even with my limited skills I've found Burton 1st time:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...t=&similar=

It confirms that he was a Gunner (Torpedo specialisation, ideal for destroyers) and was awarded the DSC for service at Dogger Bank – one of only 3 awarded.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Greg, the easiest way to find out what she was up to is look in her log: ADM 53/63430 TOWER 1917 Nov. 1 - 1917 Dec. 31. I have found logs to be quite detailed over the loss of men, outside of battles, as they would have to be produced to any courts of enquiry.

[sadsac]

Greg, nothing on TOWER, here is the award of DSC to Gnr. BURTON when serving on HMS LION ;

BURTON Joseph H N/E Gunner (T) RN 78B005 Lion

Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty 03.03.15 Gazetted

Dogger Bank Action 24.01.15 DSC

Was in charge of the Fore Submerged flat when a shell burst in the Body Room, bringing down two torpedoes, wounding two of the crew and putting out all of the lights. With great presence of mind he opened one of the air resovoirs to drive out the heavy fumes and remained there while the compartment was filling until ordered to evacuate it.

Regards Sadsac

[Greg Bloomfield]

Thanks to all for the many informative contributions. They are for a friend who is due to give a talk to his local social club on Armistice Day about the club's fallen from the two world wars. I've passed on all the info on Gunner Burton and he is more than pleased and extends his thanks to you all, as do I.

Kind regards

Greg

[Guest spooksprings]

Hi I am James Miles Burton, direct descendant of J.H. Burton, how lucky to find this post with extra information, as I am currently writing up his career into a very thick folder, due to the vast amount of documents and photos left to us. Although I note that the speech by your friend was made was some time ago, and perplexed why Joseph Henry was chosen as the subject matter, it's a shame we couldnt have shared the extra information I have, but am happy to post any details here for anyone who may be interested.

I too was perplexed by his unusual death, HMS Tower's log indicates that after 4" shell practice at Inchkeith Island, Firth of Forth, Mackerson was sent out to a buoy no.22 to moor the ship, then Joseph was lowered in a motor boat possibly to assist. Mackerson disappeared from the buoy, and Joseph drowned when the motorboat collapsed on lowering. A short search was carried out but no bodies recovered.

Loosing two top officers simultaneously having a forth full of top naval ships at the time, with rigorous overboard procedures and lifejackets, and ability to swim, not being in war time action looks highly suspicious to an amateur outsider, but I have no other information to submit to the mystery other than is appears to have be a freak accident or moment of folly / heroism.

If anyone would be curious enough to research further i can provide documents and maps

james

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Welcome to the forum James,

Given the likely temperature in the Firth of Forth in December they would not have to be in the water long before the onset of exposure. The calapse of the motor boat would be unexpected and not standard man overboard drill.

[Mike McCarthy]

Hi I am James Miles Burton, direct descendant of J.H. Burton, how lucky to find this post with extra information, as I am currently writing up his career into a very thick folder, due to the vast amount of documents and photos left to us. Although I note that the speech by your friend was made was some time ago, and perplexed why Joseph Henry was chosen as the subject matter, it's a shame we couldnt have shared the extra information I have, but am happy to post any details here for anyone who may be interested.

I too was perplexed by his unusual death, HMS Tower's log indicates that after 4" shell practice at Inchkeith Island, Firth of Forth, Mackerson was sent out to a buoy no.22 to moor the ship, then Joseph was lowered in a motor boat possibly to assist. Mackerson disappeared from the buoy, and Joseph drowned when the motorboat collapsed on lowering. A short search was carried out but no bodies recovered.

Loosing two top officers simultaneously having a forth full of top naval ships at the time, with rigorous overboard procedures and lifejackets, and ability to swim, not being in war time action looks highly suspicious to an amateur outsider, but I have no other information to submit to the mystery other than is appears to have be a freak accident or moment of folly / heroism.

If anyone would be curious enough to research further i can provide documents and maps

james

James,

Joseph Henry Burton is on my databse of Freemasons who died in the Great War whilst in the armed services.

He was a member of St Aubyn Lodge No 954 in Plymouth, and was one of 9 men from that lodge who died. All were RN or Mercantile Marine.

Any additional information you can add on Joseph Burton would be gratefully received.

Thanks

Mike