At Home Dad Posted 6 August , 2008 Share Posted 6 August , 2008 Hallo all I wonder if there is an answer to this question. Walter Tull is often quoted as being something along the lines of "first black officer in the British Army", as discussed a few times in other threads here on GWF. However, as has been pointed out, Walter Tull was mixed race. If mixed race people were considered 'black' by classification, surely Horace Sewell is the first *known* Black officer? The fact that his nickname was Sambo may be a misleading clue, as to the 'degree of his blackness'. However, he may well have been, like Walter Tull, mixed race. Horace’s grandmother was probably mulatto. http://www.firstworldwar.bham.ac.uk/nicknames/sewell.htm "[persons] who had not thought of themselves as "black" at home in the Caribbean found themselves classified as such ["mulatto"] upon passage to the United States." http://www.historycooperative.org/journals...0103000084.html It seems a real shame to suggest knocking Walter Tull off his pedestal as it were, especially to suggest replacing a professional footballer with a likely slave owner(!). I admit it is nothing more than an excercise of curiosity on my behalf, not pendantry, but surely such a high ranker as Sewell should get the recognition he *possibly* deserves? I wonder if it can be tied down further? Or possibly even reveal other unknowns? I dont think the slave registers on Ancestry are available for his time period. That would reveal a lot about how many of his siblings were mixed race too I welcome your thoughts Kind regards PS The various ways in which the Colonials classified people of colour back through time is quite fascinating in it's own right. To most extents, they are far more accurate than anything today. There were lots, too: Creole, Mulatto, Carib etc. Most of them describe the various degree's of 'shade' within the Mixed Race. The mixed race was fast becoming one of the caribbean and south America's largest populations, and today it is currently the UK's fastest growing population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heid the Ba Posted 6 August , 2008 Share Posted 6 August , 2008 Do you mean "black" or "non-white" when you refer to the "non-white" part of mixed race? There were a number of C19th and earlier officers with Indian ancestry. From memory a number of the commanders in the Mutiny had Indian mothers or grandmothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
At Home Dad Posted 6 August , 2008 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2008 I mean black, and by that, probably slave descended. I think under the 'old classification' system, Indians were described as 'Coloured', while anything with a tint of African was 'black'. Kind regards Do you mean "black" or "non-white" when you refer to the "non-white" part of mixed race? There were a number of C19th and earlier officers with Indian ancestry. From memory a number of the commanders in the Mutiny had Indian mothers or grandmothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heid the Ba Posted 6 August , 2008 Share Posted 6 August , 2008 Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 6 August , 2008 Share Posted 6 August , 2008 surely Horace Sewell is the first *known* Black officer? Army officer maybe, there is some evidence (including a painting) for black naval officers in the Caribbean during the age of sail. It seems a real shame to suggest knocking Walter Tull off his pedestal as it were, especially to suggest replacing a professional footballer with a likely slave owner(!). As slavery had long since been abolished in the British Empire, Sewell was not a "likely slave owner." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
At Home Dad Posted 6 August , 2008 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2008 Quite right! Although the Sewell family did have a vast estate(s) on Jamaica, where Horace was born. Even post slavery abolition, most people kept their old jobs and the social order that went with it. But looking at this http://www.sole.org.uk/sewecumr.htm I wonder whether there would even be any visible traits of his grandmother? Even using his grandmother as a claim to first black officer is pretty tenuous, isn't it? His nickname maybe isn't even a red herring. It's just old style racism, in today's language. Kind regards As slavery had long since been abolished in the British Empire, Sewell was not a "likely slave owner." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 6 August , 2008 Share Posted 6 August , 2008 I have difficulty with any theory that relies on something was "probably" true and race theories seem to abound with them. I've heard that Cleopatra was probably black, as was Phillippa of Hainault (because she had a son called the 'Black Prince'); when it comes to proof things tend to get fuzzy. I know that there is an argument that goes any discernable ‘black’ characteristics (no matter how tenuous) is/was black. So far we have a nick name and a possible black grandmother, not great proof. I’m looking at a photo of Brigadier General Lewis Montgomery Murray Hall c.1915, which is dark, but I don’t know whether that is because he was black or the pic has been reproduced badly. As for the first black army officer: I suspect that, as with naval officers, the 1st was in the Napoleonic Wars - if not earlier. They could have been fully black or mixed race. At that time there were plenty of cases of black people outside what is now regarded as the norm, but this isn’t the forum to discuss them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted 6 August , 2008 Share Posted 6 August , 2008 One has to be careful with nicknames. "Black Mike" McEwen was a Great War Canadian Ace. His explanation of his nickname? "It was a hot summer at Camp Borden, and I tan easily." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 7 August , 2008 Share Posted 7 August , 2008 Yawn................................................... With due respect Who cares about race colour, religion or creed, ALL fallen men (White, Black, Yellow, Red, Striped) are the SAME in my book and this kind of discussion/debate is truly POINTLESS and devisive. Why make an issue about a mans colour? Many of us are getting quite fed up of politically correct debates like this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
At Home Dad Posted 10 August , 2008 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2008 Well, that's a rather negative take on the question, Neil. A pointless and devisive debate? Crikey Surely the small differences are what make history all the more interesting? By finding a way to connect with people of the past we can often end up having someone whose attributes are admired or who can be held up as an example to others here in the present. Some people need role models, some need heroes or inspirational characters to get them interested in history, or maybe just in Life. Personally, I would rather Walter Tull was held up as a Role Model for some mixed race children than, lets say, Lewis Hamilton, a person who merely drives fast and earns obscene wages for it. But if a mixed race child is falsely led to believe that Tull was the first black or even better, mixed race Officer, then it should be corrected - if correction is possible. There's no need for the correction, but it would be 'nice' to explore. Nothing 'politically correct' in the nature of the question. 'Mixed race' may not have been a term used back in 1914, but the fact stands that Tull was mixed race and not black. Mixed race people are just as entitled to a cultural history as your 'white, black, yellow, red, striped' people, as far as I'm aware. Although, I've never seen examples of 'red' or 'striped' people, other than in a couple of my daughter's books. See a lot of mixed race people though! That exploration to me, is not a 'pointless' exercise, due to the vast knowledge available on this forum. However, I hadn't expected debate instead of facts. Devisive? Only from people who *dont* want to talk about the subject, for some odd (seemingly fearful?) reason. It's strange. There's no 'can of worms' waiting to be opened, as far as I am aware. Unless you know different? The point now is almost moot anyway, due to the helpful replies posted above yours, so you may go back to sleep... Kind regards Yawn................................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 12 August , 2008 Share Posted 12 August , 2008 If you look through various photos, such as those for the Royal Aeronautical Club Certificates, you'll probably find Commissions to black or mixed race men that pre date Tull's - for WWI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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