Thiepval

[Guest Frank Smith]

Dear all,

My Uncle, (Mam's )only brother Arthur Frank Wilson was killed on 1 October 1916. (or thereabouts given the methods of reporting at the time) His name is on the Thiepval memorial for those listed as missing in action. He enlisted in the South Lancashire regiment in Warrington. His home was Marsh Street, St Helens. I am trying to find out as to which action in which he died.

Many thanks

Frank Smith

[Greenwoodman]

Welcome to the forum, Frank.

It might just have been while holding trenches. Arthur Frank Wilson was in the 2nd S Lancs, at that time in the 75th Brigade, 25th Division. 75 Bde was in reserve until 30/09/16, when it moved into trenches in front of Stuff Redoubt/Grandcourt Valley. No action was carried until 09/10/16, when Stuff Redoubt was attacked. So based solely on these facts gleaned from the 25 Div history, it would seem that he went missing while his battalion was holding the line. The war diary may give more details.

[Stebie9173]

I assume this is your uncle:

Name: WILSON, ARTHUR FRANK

Initials: A F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: South Lancashire Regiment

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 19

Date of Death: 01/10/1916

Service No: 10186

Additional information: Son of Frank and Elizabeth Wilson, of 15, Marsh St., Parr, St. Helens, Lancs.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 7 A and 7 B.

Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

From the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website "The Thiepval Memorial, the Memorial to the Missing of the Somme, bears the names of more than 72,000 officers and men of the United Kingdom and South African forces who died in the Somme sector before 20 March 1918 and have no known grave. Over 90% of those commemorated died between July and November 1916."

Which means that Arthur was killed on the Somme but not necessarily near Thiepval itself.

According to British Battalions on the Somme by Ray Westlake, the 2nd South Lancs. had been in action at Thiepval on 3rd September 1916, then were withdrawn for rest in the Abbeville area. They returned to the Somme at the end of September and were in the Reserve Line (without being involved in major attacks) from that point until 9th October 1916. Specifically, they were in "Hessian Trench" and "Zollern Redoubt".

The Zollern Redoubt lay between Thiepval and Courcellette, and north of Mouquet Farm & Pozieres.

Steve.

[ianw]

Yes, it might be that he disapeared whilst coming up during relief of 11th division- perhaps the Germans shelled heavily during the relief and he was unlucky enough to be close to one. Such a fate could also have befallen him "safe" in the reserve line.

2nd Batt SL war diary may tell the story.

[stevem49]

During the relief of the 11th Div. units on the night of 30th September, the area was heavily shelled by the Germans.

Steve M

[edwin astill]

Kincaid-Smith's book on 25th Division says:

The 30th September the 7th Brigade, Brig.-Gen. Onslow, and 75th Bigades, Brig.-Gen. Pratt, relieved the brigades of the 11th Division on its right and the 74th Brigade was also relieved and moved back to Bouzincourt to divisional reserve. During the previous fortnight Thiepval had been captured and the British held a line approximately east and west along the Thiepval Spur. As far as the right sector of the divisional front was concerned, we had observation over Grandcourt Valley, but in the left sector from Stuff Redoubt westwards, the Germans were on the crest of the bridge. As regards Stuff Redoubt itself, though we held the southern part, the bnorthern end was still in their hands. Preparations were then made to capture the northern face and higher ground just north of Stuff Redoubt as early as possible and to push forward posts so as to nhave observation over the whole of the Grandcourt Valley. With this end in view new communication trenches were dug and as far as possible deep dugouts for the assaulting troops. A spell of bad weather necessitated the postponement of the attack, but on the 9th October the northern end of the redoubt was successfully carried by assault by the 10th Cheshires at 12.35 p.m.

Hope this helps. You can buy reprints of "The 25th Division in France and Flanders, which may add to your knowledge of your man's activities prior to his death.

Edwin

[Guest Frank Smith]

Dear Greenwoodman, Stebie, ianw,steve morse and Edwin Astill,

I have been most pleasantly overwhelmed by your thoughtful responses and the amount of trouble you have all gone to. I have so much food for thought now and some new directions for further research.

I had almost given up as the trail appeared so cold after all these years and my Mam died 2 years ago aged 97. I have been to so many cul de sacs.

I live in Sydney Australia so it isn't easy to get reliable research although I did go to Thiepval and surrounds last year - a most deeply moving place.

Thank you and God Bless you all.

Frank

[edwin astill]

While we have the bit between our teeth, the regiment's history (by Whalley-Kelly) says

(after an engagement at Thiepval) " For the remainder of September , 1916, there was little of importance to record, although the Battalion , now under the command of Major Craigie-Halkett, The Highland Light Infantyry, remained in the valley of the Ancre, carrying out its tours in the trenches in the Mouquet Farm sector. Several drafts from home arrived filling up the depleted ranks with both officers and men."

On 3rd October the battalion garrisoned Hessian, Zollern and other trenches in the vicinity of Stuff Redoubt.

You might like to contact the Regimental Museum at Preston. I've always found them helpful, but like others, they appreciate a contribution for their efforts.

Edwin