German Army Corps

[sjustice]

Hello all,

I have a feeling this will be too difficult to achieve with accuracy but, wonders have been performed for me before, by members of this forum, so here goes.

Can anyone quote, or point me to a decent resource where I can view, the composition (Divisions) of various German Army Corps during October 1918?

I am interested in Seventeenth (v. Below), Second (v.d. Marwitz) and Eighteenth (v. Hutier) Armies, and particularly the corps:

II Bavarian (v. Dellnensingnen)

XVIII (Lewarde Group - Albrecht)

XIV Reserve (Arras Group)

XI (Kühne)

LLV (Busigny Group - v. Laristh)

IV Reserve (v. Conta)

LI (v. Hofacker)

I Bavarian (v. Endres)

XXVI Reserve (v. Watter)

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[mickrose]

Hi SMJ,

The only one I can think of is this:

http://www.vlib.us/wwi/resources/germanarmywwi.html

Mick

[sjustice]

Hi Mick,

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately that work (that's the third different link to it in a day. Excellent!) though useful in showing the corps area from whence a division was raised, doesn't assign the divisions to it's corps of 1918.

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[Ken S.]

If you can't find anything better, there's always this and try and track the movements of the respective armys and divisions individually:

http://www.1914-18.info/erster-weltkrieg.p...&info=Korps

[The Prussian]

Hello!

Look at this book: "German army order of battle, 1918" (Vincent Milano, Elisabeth Milano, edited by James Hall)

Printed by; Great war militaria, Vox 552, Chambersburg,PA 17201, USA

[sjustice]

Hello!

Look at this book: "German army order of battle, 1918" (Vincent Milano, Elisabeth Milano, edited by James Hall)

Printed by; Great war militaria, Vox 552, Chambersburg,PA 17201, USA

Hi,

Thanks for the heads up - Yes that would be interesting but I don't think there are any available, in UK libraries at least.

There are a couple of similar volumes I note in US archives.

Does anyone have this book?

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[bob lembke]

From memory, and possibly reflecting my bad German grammar, Schlachen und Gefechten des Grossen Krieg 1914 bis 1918 , published by the Great General Staff in 1919. Of course, then the allies had to force the General Staff to disband, hampering the production of such materials.

Generally the German sources for the last several months of the war are a lot less existant, as the armies were retreating, perhaps abandoning records, etc., and publication efforts were disrupted by the end of the war and the associated chaos, such as the example above. Plus, the firebombing of the Prussian Archives in 1944 destroyed a lot of the source material.

Bob Lembke

[MartH]

Well like the Allied armies when in retreat, the priority of the units was not to fill in forms. So the Germany Army records for October and November 1918 were a bit thin however the producers of this volume used assessments by the US, and also French, UK and Empire, many based upon POW and post action return. It is therefore the best you can get where would we be without this document, a lot, lot poorer .

This document in No. 905 from the War Department, does anyone know what the other ones where, and if there is a list online?

As I frequently point out the Postdam Archives where bombed but there was also considerable looting by the Allied Document Commission, there were separate US, USSR, UK, French, ones and maybe other countries too. There where trains leaving Postdam stuffed full of records.

[The Prussian]

Hi,

Thanks for the heads up - Yes that would be interesting but I don't think there are any available, in UK libraries at least.

There are a couple of similar volumes I note in US archives.

Does anyone have this book?

Kind Regards,

SMJ

Yes, me, mate...

[sjustice]

OK Andreas,

I will assume you are telling me the information I need is in there.

In which case I will just have to find a copy.

Thanks.

Kind Regards,

SMJ

Hi,

Thanks for the heads up - Yes that would be interesting but I don't think there are any available, in UK libraries at least.

There are a couple of similar volumes I note in US archives.

Does anyone have this book?

Kind Regards,

SMJ

Yes, me, mate...

[The Prussian]

If you have any special questions, I could copy e few pages for you. But the entire books´got 100 pages. The problem is, you can´t see a corps and the regiments, who belong to the corps. You´ve got a list of regiments with their attachment.

[sjustice]

If you have any special questions, I could copy e few pages for you. But the entire books´got 100 pages. The problem is, you can´t see a corps and the regiments, who belong to the corps. You´ve got a list of regiments with their attachment.

Andreas,

Thanks for the further info.

Is the corps shown at all? i.e. if one knows the regiment does the book list something like, battalion<--regiment-->brigade-->division-->corps/general command?

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[The Prussian]

Hi Simon!

Well, the booklet shows all units on regimental/batallion/companies (if special units) and their belonging to divisions.

It shows the following regiments: Infantry, marine infantry, bavarian, reserve, Landwehr, Jäger, Ersatz, Landsturm, 600series, 700series, MG units, Bicycle companies, Filed artoillerie, foot vartillerie, pioneer btls., Minenwerfer units, Signal units, Scheinwerfer units, Cavalry. And:

Dispositions of the divisions jan.1 - nov.11. 1918 and a couple of photographs.

Cheers, Andreas

[sjustice]

If it doesn't show the corps it doesn't fit, I'm afraid.

Anyone else ?

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[Ken S.]

Minenwerfer units

Does it mention the 8. Garde-Minenwerfer company?

[The Prussian]

No... it´s strange, because the 8.Garde-Minenwerfer-Kompanie was found in 1915.

I must say, the booklet is not an official product. I think, there´ll be some mistakes in it.

[Paul Hederer]

Hello all,

I have a feeling this will be too difficult to achieve with accuracy but, wonders have been performed for me before, by members of this forum, so here goes.

Can anyone quote, or point me to a decent resource where I can view, the composition (Divisions) of various German Army Corps during October 1918?

I am interested in Seventeenth (v. Below), Second (v.d. Marwitz) and Eighteenth (v. Hutier) Armies, and particularly the corps:

II Bavarian (v. Dellnensingnen)

XVIII (Lewarde Group - Albrecht)

XIV Reserve (Arras Group)

XI (Kühne)

LLV (Busigny Group - v. Laristh)

IV Reserve (v. Conta)

LI (v. Hofacker)

I Bavarian (v. Endres)

XXVI Reserve (v. Watter)

Kind Regards,

SMJ

I would try volume 14 of "Der Weltkrieg, 1914 bis 1918." There was a gent here asking about German OoB for the March 1918 offensives and we were able to find pretty much all he needed there. I didnt look at the later war section, but I would imagine that information is there as well.

Paul

[bob lembke]

I would try volume 14 of "Der Weltkrieg, 1914 bis 1918." There was a gent here asking about German OoB for the March 1918 offensives and we were able to find pretty much all he needed there. I didnt look at the later war section, but I would imagine that information is there as well.

Paul

This raises an interesting question. Paul, I believe that you once said that you are able to borrow that volume from the German public libraries. However, one of our Pals who is extremely knowledgable about the German official histories (I will leave it to him to identify himself) and certainly knows more about them than I do has stated that, as of a couple of years ago, that volume had a market value of about $10,000. ( I have almost all of the volumes of Der Weltkrieg 1914 bis 1918 , but certainly not that one.) Is this a question of the edition involved? Was there a re-print? Or are the German libraries extremely trusting? I can remember more than 40 years ago being locked in a steel wire cage, pen-less, by a major US library in order to be allowed to read 19th century military volumes.

Bob Lembke

[Paul Hederer]

This raises an interesting question. Paul, I believe that you once said that you are able to borrow that volume from the German public libraries. However, one of our Pals who is extremely knowledgable about the German official histories (I will leave it to him to identify himself) and certainly knows more about them than I do has stated that, as of a couple of years ago, that volume had a market value of about $10,000. ( I have almost all of the volumes of Der Weltkrieg 1914 bis 1918 , but certainly not that one.) Is this a question of the edition involved? Was there a re-print? Or are the German libraries extremely trusting? I can remember more than 40 years ago being locked in a steel wire cage, pen-less, by a major US library in order to be allowed to read 19th century military volumes.

Bob Lembke

Bob,

It is not impossible to find the original prints of volumes 13 and 14 in the German library system. The only consideration they give to the taking of a book home is its condition, and perhaps the number of maps. If a volume contains a large number of maps they are hesitant to let you take it from the reading room as they must check that they are all in place when you return the volume, and the staff has better things to do than count out 40 maps or so while other patrons are waiting.

$10,000 for either volume is just plain crazy.

Paul

[sjustice]

Hi Paul,

Thanks. I will give that a go; we seem to have plenty of copies in the greater libraries.

Not being a German speaker can you tell me what format the ORBAT will be in? or is it narrative (hope not)?!

Kind Regards,

SMJ

I would try volume 14 of "Der Weltkrieg, 1914 bis 1918." There was a gent here asking about German OoB for the March 1918 offensives and we were able to find pretty much all he needed there. I didnt look at the later war section, but I would imagine that information is there as well.

Paul

[MartH]

Bob,

It is not impossible to find the original prints of volumes 13 and 14 in the German library system. The only consideration they give to the taking of a book home is its condition, and perhaps the number of maps. If a volume contains a large number of maps they are hesitant to let you take it from the reading room as they must check that they are all in place when you return the volume, and the staff has better things to do than count out 40 maps or so while other patrons are waiting.

$10,000 for either volume is just plain crazy.

Paul

Paul

A short reply.

Volume 13 Der Weltkrieg

The Volume 13 was published in 1942, with the wording “Nur fur den Dienstgebrauch" (N.f.D) (only for official use) established in the two secrecy instructions of 1.10.35 and 1.9.43 (X) in section II/6/A/a, with respect to the German Official Histories. This volume was issued initially to certain parties in very limited numbers on a pre-defined list.

Interestingly JE Edmonds the British Official Historian obtained a copy through the Swiss Embassy in 1943, shortly after it was issued, I wonder if he was on the list?

It was reprinted/ printed in the public domain for the first time in 1956, however the 1956 copies all have facsimile title pages in colour of the 1942 printing, saying printed 1942! It only says it's the first public printing in the new preface.

The 1942 copy has colour maps where as the 1956 maps are black and white.

These 1942 copies can be found in German Libraries for loan, but are incredibly rare, due to the small number printed, the restrictive issue list meaning only a few where issued, and the 1945 destruction of the unbond ones in store.

Volume 14 Der Weltkrieg

There are no Volume 14 1944 copies in any library any where in the world. The book had a very interesting gestation period, i.e there was much annotation to this, and considerable games where played. There are some proof copies extant.

Of the proof copies, there where 2 or 3 incomplete ones stopping at pages 639, or 644 depending upon the proof and one copy which goes to 768. Only one complete copy of the Appendices and Maps in Black and White survived. In addition 3 photographic copies where made by the Allied Document Retrieval Units, USA, USSR and UK of the most annotated proof. I am unclear whether the copy that is mentioned in 1945 going to the US is an original proof or not.

1956 Reprints

In 1948 an article was written using the US photographic copy examining the comments and corrects which effectively said the authors were rewriting history to avoid some truths or distort history. This article so incensed the German authorities that it stimulated the reprints.

The Volume 14 in addition to the original text had the “Schlußwort” (Final Words), the comments in the photographic copy and is 794 pages long.

Both 1956 Volume 13 and 14 have title pages that are misleading, the Volume 13 states a printing of 1942, Volume a printing of 1944, both clearly in error, the 13 being the first public issue of a restricted volume, and the 14 being the first bound printing for any issue. No title page has the 1956 data, it is on the preface in small print......

Therefore most bibliographic details on these books I have seen are incorrect.

I also suspect many libraries are confused by the Volume 13 facsimile title page and have listed it as a 1942 printing due to the un-amended title page ,though some 1942 exist there, like the one you borrowed and kindly showed a photograph of. Clearly the 1944 date for Volume 14 is a **** since the book was still in proof and never issued.

Touching on values, and what these books will fetch, not what the content is worth to a researcher.

Most 14's and 13's are sold as part of sets. Recently on Ebay you could have seen both 1956 copies going for about 1,000 Euros or a little less.

No 1942 Volume 13 has been for sale for sometime, but depending upon/due to provenance they will command high prices.

As for one of the 3 photographic copies or a newly discovered proof copy of the Volume 14 being sold - I know Germany book dealers who will pay substantially in excess of 10,000 Euro.

Hope this helps,

Mart

The "plain crazy" Mad Official Collector and Researcher

[Paul Hederer]

Hi Paul,

Thanks. I will give that a go; we seem to have plenty of copies in the greater libraries.

Not being a German speaker can you tell me what format the ORBAT will be in? or is it narrative (hope not)?!

Kind Regards,

SMJ

Hello!

No, they should be in the form of charts and, er, I even hesitate to say it, flow charts, but not the kind that bore you to death during your weekly office meeting.

Paul

[Paul Hederer]

Paul

A short reply.

Volume 13 Der Weltkrieg

The Volume 13 was published in 1942, with the wording “Nur fur den Dienstgebrauch" (N.f.D) (only for official use) established in the two secrecy instructions of 1.10.35 and 1.9.43 (X) in section II/6/A/a, with respect to the German Official Histories. This volume was issued initially to certain parties in very limited numbers on a pre-defined list.

Interestingly JE Edmonds the British Official Historian obtained a copy through the Swiss Embassy in 1943, shortly after it was issued, I wonder if he was on the list?

It was reprinted/ printed in the public domain for the first time in 1956, however the 1956 copies all have facsimile title pages in colour of the 1942 printing, saying printed 1942! It only says it's the first public printing in the new preface.

The 1942 copy has colour maps where as the 1956 maps are black and white.

These 1942 copies can be found in German Libraries for loan, but are incredibly rare, due to the small number printed, the restrictive issue list meaning only a few where issued, and the 1945 destruction of the unbond ones in store.

Volume 14 Der Weltkrieg

There are no Volume 14 1944 copies in any library any where in the world. The book had a very interesting gestation period, i.e there was much annotation to this, and considerable games where played. There are some proof copies extant.

Of the proof copies, there where 2 or 3 incomplete ones stopping at pages 639, or 644 depending upon the proof and one copy which goes to 768. Only one complete copy of the Appendices and Maps in Black and White survived. In addition 3 photographic copies where made by the Allied Document Retrieval Units, USA, USSR and UK of the most annotated proof. I am unclear whether the copy that is mentioned in 1945 going to the US is an original proof or not.

1956 Reprints

In 1948 an article was written using the US photographic copy examining the comments and corrects which effectively said the authors were rewriting history to avoid some truths or distort history. This article so incensed the German authorities that it stimulated the reprints.

The Volume 14 in addition to the original text had the “Schlußwort” (Final Words), the comments in the photographic copy and is 794 pages long.

Both 1956 Volume 13 and 14 have title pages that are misleading, the Volume 13 states a printing of 1942, Volume a printing of 1944, both clearly in error, the 13 being the first public issue of a restricted volume, and the 14 being the first bound printing for any issue. No title page has the 1956 data, it is on the preface in small print......

Therefore most bibliographic details on these books I have seen are incorrect.

I also suspect many libraries are confused by the Volume 13 facsimile title page and have listed it as a 1942 printing due to the un-amended title page ,though some 1942 exist there, like the one you borrowed and kindly showed a photograph of. Clearly the 1944 date for Volume 14 is a **** since the book was still in proof and never issued.

Touching on values, and what these books will fetch, not what the content is worth to a researcher.

Most 14's and 13's are sold as part of sets. Recently on Ebay you could have seen both 1956 copies going for about 1,000 Euros or a little less.

No 1942 Volume 13 has been for sale for sometime, but depending upon/due to provenance they will command high prices.

As for one of the 3 photographic copies or a newly discovered proof copy of the Volume 14 being sold - I know Germany book dealers who will pay substantially in excess of 10,000 Euro.

Hope this helps,

Mart

The "plain crazy" Mad Official Collector and Researcher

It's amazing what people know. I'm just glad to have copies so readily available, original version or reprint. I had not thought about the maps being colored or not, that fits for the volumes I borrowed, one being original, one a reprint--the covers also seem to show clearly the edition either being marked "Budesarchiv," or "Oberkommando des Heeres."

If a proof copy of volume 14 is worth that much money, what would the proofs with marginal remarks made by the original participants to be found in the archives would be worth to these worthies me wonders.

Paul

[The Prussian]

So, I´m glad to own the books 1-13, the 3 Extra-books and the belonging to it illustrated book.

The complete collection 1-14(!) had been sold at german ebay 2 months ago for about 890€. Unfortunately I missed the date...

[Hoplophile]

I have just checked the uncorrected page-proofs of the 1942 edition of Volume 14 of Der Weltkrieg, which I found some years ago at the US Library of Congress. I am, however, sorry to report that none of the information that Simon seeks is to be found there. This, alas, is in keeping with the latter volumes of Der Weltkrieg, which lack the order of battle appendices of the earlier ones.