john w. Posted 1 February , 2003 Share Posted 1 February , 2003 I have a great deal of information on both Highgate and Burden with the trial notes. Is anyone able to help me with their background, family and so on... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 2 February , 2003 Share Posted 2 February , 2003 Not much but a little on Thomas Highgate. He was born in Gravesend and joined the army on Feb 4th 1913. He was with "B" company, 1st battn Royal West Kents quartered in Dublin at mobilisation. He was not married but had an Irish girlfriend. On 5th Aug 1914 he made an entry in his paybook. "If I get killed all I have to come from the government for my services I leave to Miss Mary Mcnulty, 3 Leinster Rd, Phibsborough, Dublin. Hope this may be of some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 2 February , 2003 Share Posted 2 February , 2003 He was born in Gravesend Bob Where did you get this information from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 3 February , 2003 Share Posted 3 February , 2003 A while back I was putting together a list of firsts of 1914 and Thomas Highgate being first "shot at dawn" prompted me to look into him a little further. Can't remember where exactly the info came from as I didn't print it out, just jotted it down. Bob Coulson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 3 February , 2003 Share Posted 3 February , 2003 I live in Gravesend and would be prepared to look through all the local resources if you can definitely let me know that Thomas Highgate came from Gravesend and that I may therefore find something. Let me know from where the information came from so I can look into this further, if you want me to. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 3 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2003 According to www.aftermathww1.com/highgate2.asp he lived in Shoreham see also www.aftermathww1.com/highgate3.asp maybe he did, it seems also that he had three brothers all of whom died in action. All their names are on the memorial in Sidcup Thats all I know.. I just wanted to get any background also some for Herbert Burden John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 4 February , 2003 Share Posted 4 February , 2003 I can not but wonder why Thomas Highgate does not appear on the 1901 census. Although he was said ( by the SDGW ) to have enlisted in Guilford I have read in "For the Sake of Example" that he enlisted in Dublin in February 1913 at the age of 17. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 4 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2003 hmmm the plot thickens... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 4 February , 2003 Share Posted 4 February , 2003 Myrtle re. Thomas Highgate does not appear on the 1901 census ? there are 7 members of my family, who I can not trace in the 1901 census and I have tried all kinds of searches to try and find them, so there must be gaps in it ? Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 4 February , 2003 Share Posted 4 February , 2003 Annette Yes I agree, there are gaps in the 1901 census. I have had the same problems with finding relatives who it turned out were abroad or sometimes just staying with relatives in another part of the country at the time of the census. I thought it interesting that Thomas Highgate is not listed in 1901 census especially with the 1913 mention of his enlisting in Dublin. Does this mean for example that if he did enlist in Dublin did he move there at an earlier age and therefore was not within England and Wales in 1901? I don't know but I'm sure there's a man or woman who does. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 4 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 4 February , 2003 As to his birth I suppose the Family Record Centre in London would be a good bet.... he was born in 1898? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 5 February , 2003 Share Posted 5 February , 2003 Bob/Andrew There are a few internet sites that mention Thomas Highgate having been born in Gravesend including an entry by Julian Putkowski . Where their information came from, I don't know. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 5 February , 2003 Share Posted 5 February , 2003 Right then..... I shall go to the library as soon as possible and look for Highgates in Gravesend's directory, which lists where people were living as close to 1914 as possible. From there, if there are any leads, I will look up the details on the 1901 census in the library. I will let you know the details in a few days. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 5 February , 2003 Share Posted 5 February , 2003 Ok, I've just realised the flaw in my plan....he may have been born in Gravesend but that doesn't mean he lived here after that time! Any suggestions... Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 5 February , 2003 Share Posted 5 February , 2003 As John said The Family Record Centre in London. Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 6 February , 2003 Share Posted 6 February , 2003 Anyone going to the FRC........? Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 6 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 6 February , 2003 Andrew Kellys directory, after 1898.. Have a look at the web address in my earlier posting see what you think. The Family Record Centre will tell all though Next time I am there I will look, dont go regularly but do have dealings with them John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 7 February , 2003 Share Posted 7 February , 2003 John One of the details I find intriguing about the Highgate Court Martial is the mention of the evidence given by Baron Edouard de Rothschild's gamekeeper. Was the gamekeeper English or French ? If the latter how well did he understand Thomas Highgate's English. The gamekeeper reported Highgate as saying "I have had enough of it. I want to get out." I wonder how near this was to Highgate's original comment. Have you seen any of the written evidence concerning this ? Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 7 February , 2003 Share Posted 7 February , 2003 Replying to my own question I have just learnt that the Game Keeper Thomas Fermor was English. Interestingly the surname turns up 138 men with that surname in 1901 census and the majority of them are from Kent and Sussex. There is only mention of one gamekeeper and his first name is James. He was a resident of Sussex. Maybe a relative of Thomas Fermor. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 7 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2003 Myrtle I do have the documents and note that the person upon whom the killer evidence relied on was named Fermor. When home I will look again tonight more carefully. I do note elsewhere that when Thomas was shot he was to be shot as publicly as possible, making him an example. This may question the end result and prompted my other question probably posted elsewhere... why were some death sentences commuted and others carried out, was it a lottery who lived and who died? There may be a way in to attack the politicians... they havent gone up that road.. or else at least I havent read it yet.. Keep on pressing... we will get there!! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_McGarry Posted 7 February , 2003 Share Posted 7 February , 2003 I think you are missing a very important point with the Highgate case. The BEF were very much on a back foot at this time. The guy obviously had had enough and who could blame him!. But the BEF had only just got their foot in Flanders and already were having their butt kicked... This I think explains why the execution was held " as publically as possible" and very quickly I think he was caught and tried the same day and executed 2 days later. Highgate was shot as an example to others ... Panic if you like, as the high command did not want the whole of the BEF going home early so to speak. So I suppose what I am trying to say is events of the day were critical to whether a man lived or died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 7 February , 2003 Share Posted 7 February , 2003 Steve I am aware that the Highgate sentence was very much a case of making an example of somebody. Highgate was shot on 8th September 1914. The orders given by Sir John French on 14th September finished with the paragraph: The Commander-in-Chief takes this opportunity of again impressing on all ranks the absolute necessity for the maintenance of the strictest discipline, without which success cannot be maintained. Failure to maintain the highest standard of discipline will result in the infliction of the most severe punishment." Highgate had been shot 6 days prior to this and therefore appears to have been on the receiving end of a knee jerk reaction. However the question still arises , was he actually guilty of what he was accused ?" He was used as an example but was he guilty ? If we say that, what was considered right in law then should be considered right now, what argument have we for convicting people of murder using DNA evidence many years on. If a person has served a sentence of 15 years after being wrongly convicted do we say that person should continue to serve their sentence because they were found guilty? Of course not. Myrtle Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 7 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2003 Myrtle True... but the politicians wont have it. So what now? Can we establish whether Fermor was French or English? What eactly was Highgates offence... as I feel that I have seen later words used in a similar vein and they havent been shot.... However I STILL want to try and get to the 90% who wernt shot as their offences were the same as those who were, yet they didnt die... we need info on their offences and why they survived the war... ANY TAKERS? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 14 February , 2003 Share Posted 14 February , 2003 John There is a Roschild Archive in London which may possibly contain details of the French Estates' employees. Just another question. Do you know at whose 1914 FGCM a "handsomely bound French cookery book" was used for swearing the witnesses in, as there was no Bible available ? Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 14 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2003 Myrtle checked archive on line and no joy checking 1901 census ... Thomas Fermor 61 Sussex Withyham Sussex Withyham Timber Hewer & Sawyer Thomas Fermor 25 Kent Harrietsham Kent Harrietsham Carpenter they are the results John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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