Trench Mortar Battery Designations

[Old Tom]

Hello,

My knowledge of the 18th Division is based largely on the divisional history. This book includes two tables of the HQ and units in the division, one in late 1916 and one in late 1918. In both the Trench Mortar Batteries are referred to as 53, 54 and 55 i.e as the Brigade numbers to which they were attached (or a part of). I have recently treated myself to a trip to the National Archives and looked at the War Diaries of the 'Div Trench Mortar Batteries 18 Div 1916 Apr to 1919 Jan (WO/2026). These refer to V,W,X,Y and Z batteries. V is a heavy battery and has the most complete diary. I guess the others are medium.

Can anyone shed light on the names given to TM batteries and suggest why the Div history only refers to three while the diaries are from five.

Old Tom

[charlesmessenger]

Tom

As I understand it, the first lettered TMBs were V. These each had two heavy mortars and came into being in early 1916. Some divisions formed an additional heavy battery, which was designated W, but these were disbanded at the end of 1916. The medium batteries had meanwhile been designated X, Y, and Z. In February 1918 the Z batteries were disbanded, and merely X and Y remained, although their strength was increased from 4 to 6 mortars each. There was also a reduction in heavy batteries, resulting in the disbandment of the divisional V batteries and each corps being allowed just one heavy battery.

I hope this makes sense.

Charles M

[pw643]

Charles/Tom

Another few questions that confuse me.

For example Y/21TM or W/8TM would 21 and 8 always refer to the Division rather than the brigade?

I have a few soldiers on my database with units L/12TM, O/ 34TM, P/34TM, T/20 & T/46 which have not the standard w x y or z prefixes?

As Toms original post I have a few with numbers that could not possibly match a Division such as 97TM, 140TM, 215TM, 842TM. Would these refer to the Brigade they were with or simple typo's?

Regards

Paul

[Ron Clifton]

For example Y/21TM or W/8TM would 21 and 8 always refer to the Division rather than the brigade?

Yes. They were part of the Divisional Artillery. As indicated in an earlier post, V/ heavy batteries were later assigned to Corps and bore their number in Roman numerals, e.g. V/VIII.

I have a few soldiers on my database with units L/12TM, O/ 34TM, P/34TM, T/20 & T/46 which have not the standard w x y or z prefixes?

I have never come across any such TM unit.

As Toms original post I have a few with numbers that could not possibly match a Division such as 97TM, 140TM, 215TM, 842TM. Would these refer to the Brigade they were with or simple typo's?

Light TM batteries were allocated to infantry brigades and carried their numbers. 742 TM looks like a transcription error.

What are the sources for 842 TM and those with prefixes L/ etc? Do you have any other context for these?

Ron

[pw643]

What are the sources for 842 TM and those with prefixes L/ etc? Do you have any other context for these?

Ron

Ron

Thanks for the answers and here are a aelection of the strange ones

842TM

MORFITT, HARRY, H

O34

PERRY , F TIMMINS, WILLIAM, W

P34

HOLLAND , W

T20

NUTTALL , F

T46

SIMPSON, HAROLD, H

811TM

NEWMAN, GILBERT THOMAS SAER, G T S

WHITE, EDWIN CHARLES, E C RAE, ARCHIBALD, A

Cheers

Paul

[kevinrowlinson]

To add futher to the debate, I wonder whether a lot of the naming of TM batteries is due to timing. Not having read anything in books about trench morters, but only what I have seen on gunners records, RGA, there would seem that they changed numbers over time. Possibly to get some uniformity. Thus 410 TMB became 7X TMB, 40 TMB became 3Y TMB, 11 TMB became 19 Y TMB and so on.

This does not answer Old Toms question, but it seems to me that it depends on what date one is talking about, and who was in charge of the trench mortars. The RGA eventually only being responsible for the V/** Corp Heavy Trench Mortars.

Of course I could be wrong.

Kevin

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Paul

Light TM batts with brigades were manned by the infantry, medium TM batts by the RFA and heavy TM batts by the RGA.

All of your men with the "dubious" numbers were in the RFA and I suspect transcription errors, especially the 811 and 842. The others might be divisional medium batteries (34th Div etc) and the prefix letter, shown in inverted commas, may be a mistake for Y or Z (the T's) or may denote that they were temporarily attached to Corps, some of which used letters instead of the Corps number for corps troops units.

Or, as Kevin says, they may have been earlier numbers which were changed to the standardised versions later. The early TM batts were formed on rather an ad-hoc basis depending on which types of mortar were available.

Ron

[Old Tom]

Hello,

Thanks, its more complicated than I thought. I can only guess that the author of my div history, writing after the war when the units concerned had disbanded used Brigade numbers. In October 1918 the OC of X18TMB in a report drawing attention to the lack of unit transport to carry ammunition referred to his unit as shown.

Old Tom

[rflory]

Old Tom wrote:

In October 1918 the OC of X18TMB in a report drawing attention to the lack of unit transport to carry ammunition referred to his unit as shown.

.

This is a proper designation. X.18 TMB (sometimes written X/18 TMB) served as a Medium Trench Mortar Battery in the 18th (Eastern) Division from 19 June 1916 until the end of the war. There were initially three Medium TMBs in the division (X, Y, and Z.18 TMBs) and two Heavy TMBs (V and W.18 TMB) by the end of the war this had been reduced to two Medium TMBs (X and Y.18 TMBs) and no Heavy TMBs.

Regards, Dick Flory

[pw643]

Ron

Thanks for that.

I do have quite a few more with 8** and only 8,400 into my database, I have seen many errors with 8's used instead of B but that doesn't seem to fit with TM men. I have lots of 2's instead of Z but again I have to investigate each one to see if the Bde or Bty fits in with that particular area. If I can't find the answer they will remain as stated on the source I get them from. If everything was recorded and transcribed correctly we wouldn't have a 10th of the forum we have today.

Paul

[pw643]

Ron

Thanks for that.

I do have quite a few more 8** and have only previously come across 8's been used as B's.

As Dick and Kev suggest that numbering became simplified as the war went on but all my questionable ones are all after July 1916 and some into 1918. I do try to use many variants for possible errors but those that remain unresolved will stay as I got them from whichever source on my database which is at 8,443 and probably around 3 - 500 errors

Tom

If names are of interest to you these are the ones I have so far

Unit CWGC link Rank No. Age Born Enlisted

V18TMROSE, CARDINAL ROBERT, C R Gunner39208KiA20/01/1918UnknownIpswichBridgewater

X18TMBENNETT, ERNEST WILLIAM, E W Gunner135595D germany14/05/191824Acocks Green WorcesterBirmingham

X18TMBUKIN, JAMES JOHN, J J Gunner37753died02/06/191826LondonShepherds Bush

X18TMHOUGHTON, ERNEST, E Gunner687536D germany03/07/191827??

Y18TMGILMORE , E F GunnerL/26261KiA (MM)05/09/191826WestminsterShoreditch

Regards

Paul

[pw643]

Sorry about the double post I have tried for the last two hours and lost my data 6 times so far

Paul