Financial Award?

[Guest dave neale]

I have just recently come across an entry in a List of Distinctions for a

Gunner Arthur Atkinson R.N.V.R. H.M.S. Lion, awarded 5 pounds for sighting and sinking an enemy submarine.

Was this a common occurance to give financial rewards rather than MID or other comendation? Who would have paid the sum of money?

Anyone got any other examples of this happening?

Dave

[Andrew Marshall]

Not sure about the exact nature of specific monetary awards being given but a naval researching friend of mine did tell me that the Navy would often promote someone to a higher rank (and therefore higher pay etc) instead of minor recommendations. I will ask him if is aware of specific monetary awards or any further information.

Regards

Andrew

[CROONAERT]

Was this a common occurance to give financial rewards rather than MID or other comendation?

I have heard of this occurance a number of times in the past,involving the Royal Navy. (I'm not sure,but I think that it also happened in the German Navy also).

I believe that the tradition goes back to the 17th century (at least),when "privateers" (basically pirates paid by the Government to attack only Spanish/French ships - naval mercanaries) received a royal bounty for enemy vessels destroyed (as well as the plunder rights).A lump sum was paid and this was distributed,unevenly,through the ranks.

[robwilliams]

Dave,

Like Andrew, I have come across men being awarded a higher rate of pay, though this time in the army.

Rob

[AOK4]

The Germans did this a lot.

I have read that the soldiers or the companies got financial rewards for: having captured an australian soldier (the first on the Western Front), having destroyed a tank (I believe a MGK got 500 Mark from the Bavarian Kriegsminissterium for destroying a tank on 31st July 1917) etc.

This had nothing to do with a higher pay or so, it was a one time reward for having done something special, most when the Germans could get useful information or experience by the achievement.

Jan

[Patrick]

Evening

This practice was not uncommon in the French army and there are several accounts for

Ex : Bringing in prisoners 50 francs and 8 days leave + promotion to higher rank and a citation (P 355 ,Nobécourt les fantassins du chemin des dames)

The 4 mai 1918 General Pétain asked for release of funds.

A soldier capturing a German prisoner without artillery help 1000 francs with the help of artillery 250 francs .

A company could not cash in more than 12000 francs a day .

This sum had to be paid in the shortest delay Page 355 same book Norbecourt

Clemenceau accepted this principle , but the system was only used when the capture of prisoners was of the highest priority ,

above examples are just before the Friedensturm of the Germans at le Chemin des Dames when the French desperately needed intelligence .

And it was left to the General of the army to decide when or not a soldier was to be remunerated for the capture of prisoners .

The difference in prize money with or without artillery help is an economic one

The cost of the ammunition used raised the total bill ,

so they took it back from the prize money

Also accounts of officers paying their men exists

Like the one signed of general Levi commander of the 46 division

order n° 44 of the 20 February 18,

I always have 50 lires in my pocket for the machine gun that downs a German plane

And 100 lires more if I have the pleasure to witness it.

The highest paid prize money was paid to the 366 R.I of the 132 division (170 men)

Under orders of Lt Balestié of the 13e Cie on the 14-15 july 1918 Chemin des dames

For a successful raid 10.000francs (prisoners-maps –papers etc)

(the soldiers on the picture Lt Balestié and some of his men)

From ..Capitaine P. Waendendries, " La journée du 15 juillet 1918 ", 1928, p.100

[Guest dave neale]

Many thanks for your replies.

Very interesting accounts of the German and French armies paying special awards.

I get the impression this was not such a common occurance with the British forces and seems to have been a Naval related tradition.

Not being familiar with naval records, is there individual ships records that maybe researchable to track this particular event of sinking of an enemy submarine?

I wonder what Gunner Arthur Atkinson would have done with his five pounds? send it home to his family, or drinks all round next time on shore leave..........!!!

Dave

[Jock Bruce]

Dave,

ships' logs for the period are in the PRO at Kew, and things of beauty they are - I've only ever looked at one minor vessel but the log had lots of good stuff.

Don't know about personal papers for your Gunner - never had occassion to chase individual RN records, but Kew would be worth a shot.

Jock Bruce

[Michael]

I've found that unless you have a service number, tracing a naval service record is a bit hit and miss. There is an alphabetical list of surnames where you can find the service number but it isn't very easy to read and NOT very aphabetical.

If you do have a service number then it is very easy to find the record. They used to be in big ledgers but have recently been put onto microfilm, making copies much cheaper

Michael

[Guest dave neale]

Jock and Michael,

Many thanks for your replies.

Its funny really as I have visited the PRO many times, but have never looked into Naval records.

Im sure the ships logs must contain some very interesting accounts. I shall try to look further into this event with H.M.S. Lion the next time I am able to get to the PRO. Could be some time though as I now live 6000 miles away!

Dave

[CROONAERT]

From the "World War One Source Book " by Philip J Hawthornethwaite:

"PRIZE MONEY"

The ancient practice of "prize money" awarded to crews of ships which destroyed or captured an enemy vessel still persisted during the Great War,the British practice being to award £5 for every crew member of the vanquished enemy vessel present at the start of the action,"head money" of which the value remained unchanged for generations. Traditionally ,it was still divided unequally among the crew,and among all ships present,even those that might not have fired a shot.

Division was as follows : one 60th of the whole sum to the senior flag officer,and one 60th to be divided between the other flag officers present. One 10th of the remainder was divided into equal "shares" between the commanding officers of ships and their second in commands under a captain.Captains took 6 "shares",2ic's 3"shares" and others 2 "shares".

The remainder of the sum was divided again with higher amounts of "shares" for the higher ranks etc.

For the sinking of the Blucher at Dogger Bank, 47 crews shared the "head money". This ranged from Beatty's £79/4s/4d (as commanding officer) to 1s/2d for each ship's boy.

Conversely, for the sinking of the Messudiyeh by submarine B11 earned Lt.Norman Holbrook,not only th V.C.,but also £601/10s/2d in "head money".The most junior members of his crew received more than £120 each.

Dave.

[Kate Wills]

Frank Mitchell in his account of tank warfare in WW1 relates that his tank was the first to fight a tank vs tank engagement - and won, putting a German A7V out of action.

As tanks were known as "Landships" he decided to try and claim the prize money for the destruction of an enemy ship. It seems the letter circulated around many departments for many months before he got a polite rejection.

Kate (& Martin)