Royal Engineers: Arthur Griffith Roberts

[cottager]

For over a decade I've been trying to get a line on my grandfather about whom there is nothing from 1917 until 1947 when he died, bar one brief "sighting" in 1940 when he was the informant on a death certificate.

My hope has always been his WW1 army service could be the key to unlocking the 30-yr period, through pension records, the logic being that if he was entitled to one it would have to be sent somewhere, so there would be addresses.

Background...

Arthur Griffith Roberts was a civil engineer, b. Jan 1873 at Brecon. I follow him through census till 1901, when he was at Newport, Mon. Then a gap till 1912 when he married in China, presumably working there on a contract or something like that, and my aunt was born there in 1914. We always knew they came back to Britain sometime after that, not sure when, but knew from my father's birth certificate (1917, Bath) that Arthur was then a Captain with the Engineers... apparently away on war duties, as a non-family member informed the birth.

We assumed Arthur either volunteered or was called up on some short-term basis into the RE where his civil engineering "talents" would have been useful. We couldn't find when or any details... that is until a couple of days ago when I found the online Gazette and one reference to him:

Corps of Royal Engineers:

The undermentioned to be temp. Lts.:-

Arthur Griffith Roberts. 29th Jan. 1917.

Then I found the forum.

Back in 2000 a researcher began looking for AGR for me, and I'll split what he came back with into two:

Part 1

I began the search by examining the WW1 Medal Card Index. The closest match I could find was a Capt. Arthur ROBERTS M.C. who was in the Royal Engineers. The reference details were noted in case I have to refer back to them at a later date.

With an MC I didn't expect this to be my Arthur, but got the card from the National Archives site and couldn't be sure. He was a 2nd Lieut, then Captain, so it could have been. Now the reverse of the card can be seen at Ancestry I know it's not him, as an address in Bolton is noted.

Part 2

Next I examined the WW1 Officers records. These are not to be confused with the soldiers records that were badly damaged through fire and water during WW2. About 90% of the records of Officers who served during WW1 and who were discharged by 1921, are available at Kew.

The Index WO 338/16 divulged two possibles:

1. Arthur G. ROBERTS Royal Engineers 103845

2. A.G. ROBERTS Royal Engineers 170624 (P83082).

I converted the above numbers into modern day references and was disappointed to find that neither record was available.

1. This should be there but isn't. This would suggest that the record has been lost.

2. The "P" numbered reference means that it may still be retained by the MOD. I will write to see if they hold the record and if so, are prepared to release it. I wouldn't hold your breath on this as the last time I contacted them they took months to reply. Of course, it may not be the right reference either for the "lost" record looks a good candidate.

Without further information, there is little more I can do on this topic at the present time.

So we came to a grinding halt, and my hopes of finding pension info fell by the wayside. I do believe the researcher wrote to the MOD but heard nothing, then not too long later my own circumstances changed and I couldn't manage much in the way of paid research anyway to try and take it further. At that stage I didn't even know when Arthur had died, but was able to track it down to 1947 eventually, once the GRO indexes became available online.

With so little detail, such a very common surname, and no service number for sure, I never felt there was enough to request a search direct from the MOD... the form was quite formidable! From the researcher's comments it seemed I'd have to go for both possibilities with no guarantee either would be right or even if they'd be able to turn up the records either... in the circumstances it seemed quite a lot of expense for potentially nothing, which I couldn't really afford.

When the MICs became available at the NA I looked again.

There are 43 results for Arthur Roberts, only two are officers: the Arthur with an MC, who's wrong, and another whose names are David Arthur.

Then 49 results for an A. Roberts, and again only two are officers. One is D. A. Roberts, so not him (possibly the same as above), and the card for the other has this:

ROBERTS, A.Lieutenant (Actg. Captain)Royal EngineersM.I.D. London Gaz. 6.7.17 page 6767I have the LG entry from 6 July. The MID was in the despatch from C-in-C Egyptian Expeditionary Forces, 18 Mar 1917.

This last one looks vaguely possible, but no more than that. No service number, the A. could stand for Arthur or anything else, there's no middle initial. Not even sure if the timeline is possible...

29 Jan 1917: my Arthur to be Temp. Lt. from this date, gazetted 2 March.

18 Mar 1917: the A. Roberts in the MIC is a Lieut., acting Captain, MID gazetted 6 July.It doesn't seem likely he'd have whizzed up to an Acting Captain from temp. Lieut. in about 6 weeks -- I don't really think it can be him, though my Arthur was Captain by Sept. that year when my father was born.

So we fall back on the two which the researcher found, the first whose record seems to be missing and the second whose record he thought was retained by the MOD. They both look quite promising but it seems I couldn't get hold of either. Neither have MICs that I've been able to find with the details quoted.

Thanks for bearing with me, and now the questions:

1. If he was in the RE on a short-term basis only from early 1917, would he have been entitled to any medals?

2. Would he have been entitled to a pension at all, or am I hoping for records of something that never happened?

3. If he was, would it have been limited (I mean the length of time it was paid), or would it have continued until he died?

4. A missing record I can understand, but why would one be retained by the MOD?

5. Where the heck can I go from here, if anywhere?

Any observations, pointers or suggestions very much appreciated... and sorry this got so long

[mhifle]

Hi,

There is a Captain A G Roberts listed with the Royal Engineers on the December 1917 Army List.

Regards Mark

[mhifle]

Hi,

There is also Major A G Roberts listed with the Royal Engineers on the December 1918 Army List.

Also LG 5th March 1918

CORPS OF ROYAL ENGINEERS.

The undermentioned temp. Capts. to be

temp. M.ajors. 1st Feb. 1918: —

A. G. Roberts.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...t=&similar=

Regards Mark

[SteveE]

There is a Captain A G Roberts listed with the Royal Engineers on the December 1917 Army List.

Here's the Gazette entry to go with it (London Gazette #30009, 4 April 1917)

CORPS OF ROYAL ENGINEERS.

The undermentioned to be actg. Capts.: —

2nd Lt. (temp. Lt.) D. Bowen, W. York. R., T.F. 1st Feb. 1917.

Temp. Lt. A. G. Roberts. 19th Feb. 1917.

Link is Here

Steve

[cottager]

Mark and Steve, thanks so much to you both for the additional listings -- very grateful, and for the Army List images in particular as I don't have access to these publications.

Any offers on the questions at the end of my post?

Annie

[Myrtle]

Annie

You may find out more information about your grandfather if you contact the archivist at ICE (Institution of Civil Engineers) telephone number: 0207 665 2043

Myrtle

[cottager]

Thanks Myrtle, but already tried 10 yrs ago. They had his father (same profession), but sadly nothing on Arthur. Many doors tried, none open!

Annie

[Myrtle]

Annie

May be worth another try. The archivist (who probably wasn't there 10 years ago) has been putting a lot of information on line making searching a lot easier.

Myrtle