New Army Desertions at Home

[sjustice]

Hello all,

Whilst doing some research around the New Army battalions at home, I came across some statistics which puzzled me.

Six (service) battalions of RWF were associated with 113th Brigade during the war.

Up to 30 June 1915 there had been 137 desertions from those six battalions, of which 120 came from 15th (53) and 18th (67) Battalions.

Does anyone have evidence of a particular reason for such a concentration?

Also any details of Courts Martial in these cases?

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

When researching Tyneside Irish and Tyneside Scottish I found the two best places for info on deserters were the local papers and the local court records. These are available at the local records office of the recruiting area.

regards

John

[clive_hughes]

Hi Simon,

the statistics you quote are taken from the Welsh Army Corps Papers, held at the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth. They were originally in a file marked "Memoranda" but it's years since I last saw them, at a time when the collection (deposited in the 1920s) had yet to be catalogued. The file probably has a proper reference number by now!

The 15th and 18th Battalions RWF were respectively the 1st and 2nd London Welsh Battalions. Many of their personnel had little connection with Wales, and Private Harold Diffey of the 15th recorded how the men were staggered by the size of the Great Orme's Head in Llandudno, never having seen such a large "mountain" before. He also notes that soldiers from the unit proved troublesome on pay nights, stealing shop goods and vending machines from the resort, and keeping the regimental Police busy. These two battalions provided 110 out of 273 deserters from the entire Welsh Division dismounted troops by July 1915. The 15th's mixed Welsh/English composition is also echoed in David Jones' In Parenthesis. I believe that Diffey's account, formerly serialized in the RWF journal Y Ddraig Goch is now available in one place on the RWF Forum.

I'm sure other battalions were hardly saintly, nor were the others necessarily as Welsh in character as their names suggested - the 14th (Caernarvonshire and Anglesey) Battn. RWF to whom this should have been home turf were 21 per cent English and 20 per cent South Welsh by given address at the time of embarkation in December 1915.

Nevertheless, it's hard to resist the conclusion that the London Welsh at Llandudno were well away from Home in both a geographical and a cultural sense, and so perhaps had more men prone to the temptation to go AWOL. This even though by all accounts the Brigade had a fairly good time training there, the first arrivals being served the usual boarding-house breakfasts by waitresses, and there was plenty to divert them in town and on the Orme. One of the 17th RWF soldiers referred to English recruits being attracted to the unit by the idea of a "seaside sojourn"!

Much of the above information is available in Ian Beckett and Keith Simpson (ed.) A Nation in Arms (Manchester University Press 1985, reprinted by Tom Donovan Publishing 1990 and more recently Pen & Sword Select 2004).

LST_164

[sjustice]

Hello matey and thanks very much for your reply and additional info. I was wondering where the original detail came from and will endeavour to consult same.

I absolutely love the concept of 'seaside sojourn'.

I did, indeed, pick up on this from Beckett and Simpson's work and it remains this huge contrast in the figures between the rest of the brigade and the two 'London Welsh' battalions that cannot be a co-incidence IMO. The London <--> Llandudno angle seems reasonable as long as the penalty wasn't severe. I assume that as they were not under fire the ultimate penalty was not a possible firing squad?

Btn, Enlisted, Desertions to 30 June 1915

13th, 1833, 1

14th, 1532, 6

16th, 1660, 4

17th, 1324, 6

15th, 1575, 53

18th, 1417, 67

Kind Regards,

SMJ

Hi Simon,

the statistics you quote are taken from the Welsh Army Corps Papers, held at the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth. They were originally in a file marked "Memoranda" but it's years since I last saw them, at a time when the collection (deposited in the 1920s) had yet to be catalogued. The file probably has a proper reference number by now!...

...

I'm sure other battalions were hardly saintly, nor were the others necessarily as Welsh in character as their names suggested - the 14th (Caernarvonshire and Anglesey) Battn. RWF to whom this should have been home turf were 21 per cent English and 20 per cent South Welsh by given address at the time of embarkation in December 1915.

Nevertheless, it's hard to resist the conclusion that the London Welsh at Llandudno were well away from Home in both a geographical and a cultural sense, and so perhaps had more men prone to the temptation to go AWOL...

...One of the 17th RWF soldiers referred to English recruits being attracted to the unit by the idea of a "seaside sojourn"!

Much of the above information is available in Ian Beckett and Keith Simpson (ed.) A Nation in Arms (Manchester University Press 1985, reprinted by Tom Donovan Publishing 1990 and more recently Pen & Sword Select 2004).

LST_164

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Hi Simon

I have come across six men from the 6th K.S.L.I., who came from the St. Georges area Shropshire, all six legged it(deserted) on the same, all were arrested on the same day in the St. Georges area, and all were sentenced on the same. Their punishment was mostly the same day, and all were kick out of the Army.

Annette

[geraint]

Hi

I would agree with LST. A few other points. The 18th also became a Reserve Battalion in Aug 1916, which meant men would be drafted as required to other RWF battalions according to needs. This gave the enlisted men a slight leeway if there were any doubts about their original motives for enlistment. Once the Derby men became members, and certainly when full conscription became the norm, the type of man in the colours would have a greater opportunity and personal motive for desertion. It would be interesting to know how the desertion rates grew in ALL regiments in the British Army following conscription in 1916.

I would disagree with LST regarding the quality of the London Welsh battalions - especially the 15th. We must remember that the Welsh in London during the late Victorian period were there on a massive scale. The professional Welshmen flocked to the 15th in August 1914, and would have been as proud to serve as any other regiment members. The 18th, I would agree is different.

[NeilEvans]

Oh St. Georges

Thats where i live.

[geraint]

Just an after thought! I think that the deserter from the 13th was a certain Richard Blood (good Welsh name for the boyo!), found hiding under a labourer's bed in a stable loft in Llandegla. The farmer, becoming suspicious of the man, contacted MPs at Wrexham. As the local paper said "He was taken away in chains, and no more was heard about him."

[sjustice]

Annette, Geraint

Thanks for the additional info.

It strikes me as amusing that the punishment for desertion would be expulsion from the army. I presume some form of imprisonment and then dishonourable discharge? Can anyone confirm that this was a mandatory punishment for desertion in the 'at home' per KR?

The story of the 13th Battalion man is priceless.

I should (and will when I get time) check for myself, but does anyone know if the brigade or battalion war diaries contain information on the mass desertions? or if, indeed, they were 'mass' or 'very frequent'?

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[geraint]

Simon

Not sure if you are 100% correct on 'expulsion'. Being AWOL was often charged as 'desertion', and in most cases dealt with according to the nature of the offence. There are many recollections by various veterans where they missed their battalions for perfectly good reasons, became AWOL, and charged with desertion, but given light sentences such as confined to camp, reduction in the ranks, loss of pay, or even FP#1 if there was a consistent record of such behaviour.

Desertion at home for a considerable period of time (such as Blood above), would have merited a period in the glasshouseand then returned to his battalion unless there were medical constrains.

Interesting thread this!

Desertion in the field, on active service was another matter completely.

[sjustice]

Geraint,

I was referring to Annette's post ref the punishment:

Hi Hi Simon

I have come across six men from the 6th K.S.L.I., who came from the St. Georges area Shropshire, all six legged (deserted) on the same, all were arrested on the same day in the St. Georges area, and all were sentenced on the same. Their punishment was mostly the same day, and all were kick out of the Army.

Annette

Interesting point you bring up as well i.e. are Beckett and Simpson's figures relating to those charged with desertion or convicted of same?

I don't think it's possible to judge from A Nation in Arms. Perhaps the original Welsh Army Corps papers give further detail?

Hmmmm...and AWOL and Desertion are differentiated by what criteria?

Kind Regards,

SMJ

P.S. I've updated the topic title/decription to reflect a wider interest

[truthergw]

The difference between desertion and absence without leave has been debated on forum. As far as I recall, a man who could show a genuine intention to return to the colours was not guilty of desertion but would be found to be AWOL. It was for the prosecution to satisfy the court that he did not intend to return. In practice, length of time missing and whether the man returned voluntarily would have some affect on the court's decision. Theoretically, if you missed a muster parade, you were AWOL. As mentioned, crimes committed in the war zones attracted much more severe penalties.

[bootneck]

Just as an aside to this topic, I once looked at the Police Gazette for one of the early war years at the Newspaper Library at Colindale and was struck by the large numbers of men recorded as AWOL or deserted from both the Army & Navy. It struck me at the time as an interesting idea for a database but probably far too time consuming.

Bootneck

[geraint]

Sorry Annette - didn't mean to ignore your point. one becomes so focused! Do you have any other details on those 6? Were they recurrent offenders? There must have been some logic in the Regiment's provost system to kick them all out?

Geraint

[geraint]

I think it was Frank Richards who described a group of four who had been detailed for minor signalling work, returned to billets to find that the battalion had departed. The four followed the railway, came to a junction two went left, two went right. When they all finally rejoined the 2nd RWF, they were charged with AWOL cum desertion. Very lightly punished if I recall.

Bootneck, again I would agree that there are frequent references in newspapers to 'groups of deserters', but with no real hard evidence as to names, locations etc. Maybe groups/drafts of men joining their units tended to 'be lost' for a few days and enjoyed some unofficial R+R! I know that the Rhyl Police Superintendant was forever bringing groups of stragglers, merry-makers etc to the Provost at Kinmel Camp throughout the war. The local papers quotes the Superintendant on many occasion and he refers to them as 'deserters' - probably a generic term for those who were AWOL.

Tom - the muster parade was certainly the criteria. Was 'Straggler' an official term for a soldier who arrived late, or were they all classified as AWOL?

[clive_hughes]

Hi Simon,

not an unreasonable question you raise there, as regards the figures reflecting charged/convicted deserters.

The WAC statistics are silent on the issue: the headings you see in the "Memoranda" file more likely reflect the way the Army dealt with all manner of "casualties" in the broadest sense, whether transfers, deaths, discharges or whatever. In this case I think someone wanted to know how many desertions had taken place and this was the answer supplied, whatever criteria they used.

I would guess that it's a case of reported, rather than convicted desertion. But someone else who knows more about the minutiae of the Army admin and reporting procedure is welcome to enlighten us further!

LST_164

[truthergw]

A straggler was a man who could not keep up or lost contact with his unit when it was on the move. We think of the many men on the Mons retreat who fell behind and came ' straggling ' in later at night. Old soldiers would do this as a matter of course. The sergeant majors would know who were genuine and who to keep a beady eye on. It could happen in the UK as well. More than one man hopped off his train for one reason or another and emerged to find it gone. Once again, old soldiers would make their own way to the destination, New Army might look for instruction. There is a question of discipline here. A New Army man was a volunteer. Some of them seemed to retain a naive idea that they could ' unvolunteer' if it was not what they thought it was going to be. They had to be disabused of this notion. Many men rushed to volunteer for a war which would last a few months at most. When they found themselves going off to France the following summer, knowing of the results of the early battles at and around Aubers, the gloss may well have gone off the idea. Not at all what they had volunteered for.

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Simon

"It strikes me as amusing that the punishment for desertion would be expulsion from the army. I presume some form of imprisonment and then dishonourable discharge"

I have had a look at the men's papers again(seven not six like I mentioned above), they are all charged with being absent but still like you I also find it amusing, them being kicked out of the army (dishonourable discharge) seeing that's what they wanted in first place.

I do not have the full papers for all the men but they all did a few days locked up in the civil nick, plus one day in Guard room on 3-3-15, they may have been locked up for more then the one day because they are not returned to their unit until the 19-3-15, also for several of them 14 days FP No. 2 was given (again they may all have got FP No 2 because on some of the papers text as been crossed out). They were all discharged on 22-3-15.

Hi Geraint

Like I mentioned I do not have all the mens papers, there are charge sheets for a couple of them, and they were indeed recurrent offenders. I get the feeling that the CO was glad to get rid of them.

Annette

[geraint]

Hmmm! Curious ehh! Not much of an example 'pour les autres' there!

Damn and blast this Forum! This thread has got me going on this topic now! (As if I didn't have enough to do in the first place...)

[truthergw]

Just as today, up to 1916 before conscription, a criminal record could bar you from enlisting and many offenders were punished and given dishonourable discharge or discharged with ignominy. I do not know the difference. This affected your chance of employment in civvy street. When the war started we had a lot of petty offenders given the chance to enlist or be dealt with by the magistrate. The army was very reluctant to enlist anyone guilty of a dishonesty charge.

[Graham Stewart]

Going back to Bootneck was saying, I'm very fortunate to actually own some copies of the Police Gazette from 1914 though to 1919 and they were published on a fornightly basis. What is suprising is that as the war wears on the number of cases of desertion at home rise considerably to the point where the Gazette runs to many pages, especially on the introduction of conscription. It is also interesting to note that from August 1914 many Regular Army deserters, who had deserted before the War, return to their old units,

There are also ACI's which also deal with desertion and how it should be approached by Commanding Officers, whereby the deserters family is contacted with a view to persuading him to give himself up on a lesser charge of 'Absent Without Leave' and not 'Desertion'. However it is also noted that some men can be regarded as 'persistent deserters', their names appearing on more than one or two occassions.

PS

As I'm not in England I'm afraid I'm sorry, but I can't do look-ups.

[bootneck]

It was the same for the marines. Blumberg in Sea Soldiers volume 3 mentions men who return to England having deserted all other the world; some after a considerable number of years who were to old to serve.

Going back to the Police Gazette, I vaguely remember that it also list men returned from desertion or who the police were not looking for. Perhaps, Graham might be able to clarify this.

Bootneck

[Graham Stewart]

Bootneck,

Very true - the Police Gazette does indeed contain lists of those who did return to their units under their own steam or were no longer being sought by the Police. The Gazettes themselve are listed for easy reference i.e. Regular Army/Special Reserve, Territorial Force followed by the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. As the war procedes you then get men who desert under the Group System(Derby Scheme) and Military Services Act(Conscripts) and they are listed under these sections and also added is the Royal Flying Corps/Royal Air Force.

[6th Shropshires]

Could anyone tell me where I can copies of the Police Gazette, please.

Annette

[Graham Stewart]

6th Shropshire,

Copies of the Police Gazette are located at the British Newspaper Libarary, Colindale, London. Sadly another British institution not easily accessed for those North of the Watford Gap.