RE Soldier Driver

[thrush]

This man, Joseph Toole, no 50842, in the 1901 Census was listed as a Lorry Drivers Assistant. He was living with his family, age 14, in Ordsall Salford. He enlisted in the RE as a Driver. His medal cards states he entered the war in France 19 July 1915 and he was awarded the 15 Star, The British Medal and the Victory Medal. I am almost sure he was from the Manchester area as a sequential of his number enlisted in the Manchester Regiment. He survived the war because he has Z Reserve 1919 on his card.

What I would like advice on please is would this particular occupation be considered as relevant on his enlistement? Also, on his card he is not listed as sapper but I think Dvr. Would this be an Army abbreviation for Driver. I am thinking that there would not be too many Lorry Drivers available in 1914, and their training could take more than a matter on months, but I do not know really as I have read some scary tales of young inexperienced men!

I would appreciate any advice at all really.

Thank you

Bird

[sotonmate]

Bird

A Lorry Driver's Assistant in 1901 could well have been the finished article by 1914 !

His card in WO372 at Kew states Driver. My assessment is that because he had a driving skill the RE made the best of him in one of their Field Companies. Drivers were also attached to RE from RASC (ASC then) but your Medal card has no doubt that he was RE.Drivers also handled a team of horses !

From the date into Theatre I could make a guess that he might have landed with the 17th Northern Division,which arrived in France over a few days around your 19 July 1915. There was also 19th Western Division landed around the same time. This might narrow down which Group he was with. Do not assume that because he was Manchester he was in a Northern Div. though ! In fact,as my old Granny said,Assume nothing !

Sotonmate

Edit. Forgot to attach this from the Long Long Trail at top left of this page:

http://www.1914-1918.net/17div.htm

and this,(assume nothing !):

http://www.1914-1918.net/19div.htm

[thrush]

Bird

A Lorry Driver's Assistant in 1901 could well have been the finished article by 1914 !

His card in WO372 at Kew states Driver. My assessment is that because he had a driving skill the RE made the best of him in one of their Field Companies. Drivers were also attached to RE from RASC (ASC then) but your Medal card has no doubt that he was RE.Drivers also handled a team of horses !

From the date into Theatre I could make a guess that he might have landed with the 17th Northern Division,which arrived in France over a few days around your 19 July 1915. There was also 19th Western Division landed around the same time. This might narrow down which Group he was with. Do not assume that because he was Manchester he was in a Northern Div. though ! In fact,as my old Granny said,Assume nothing !

Sotonmate

Edit. Forgot to attach this from the Long Long Trail at top left of this page:

http://www.1914-1918.net/17div.htm

and this,(assume nothing !):

http://www.1914-1918.net/19div.htm

Dear Sotonmate

Thank you so much for your excellent reply and the links. I have read these and will return to them. He was assistant driver at age 14, but do you really think he would still be one in 1914? I get the shivers imagining horses charging about amidst the battle grounds but I know you are right. I can still recall horses carting around the milk and slowly pausing for a moment at the right house for the milkman to deliver the milk. Lovely beasts with plaited tails and huge hoofs.

I like you Granny's advice but honestly I would never have found and confirmed the service details of four of seven family members that served without exploiting the few facts that I do have without a certain amount of guess work. I have been helped by the Forum and also by kind people like yourself. I confirmed one soldier by his marriage certificate in 1916 this not only stated rank but also his service number, thus confirming all the work I had done. I am left with Joseph and one other and these are proving the most difficult. In terms of grasping at straws these are not so apparent, but as I know the occupations of a soldier could be a consideration it certainly helps me, and I do thank you for this.

So, a big thank you again,

Best wishes,

Pat

[sotonmate]

Bird

Of course, I meant a lorry driver's assistant in 1901 would likely have graduated to a driver by 1914,the finished article,and thus ready-made for the Army to exploit as I can't imagine they were overcome by numbers in that field !

I agree that you should make some temporary assumptions,but always review them and convert them into facts,as you obviously have done with some success !

I also agree with your feelings about horses at war. Not something to reflect on this Sunday morning.

I shall reflect further on this and see what else occurs to me.

Sotonmate

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Bird/Sotonmate

I don't think that a man recruited as a lorry driver would be expected to work with horses. In the ASC the jobs of MT Driver and HT Driver were quite distinct, and the skills are not really interchangeable.

There were very few RE units in 1914-15 which had any form of mechanical transport, all at GHQ or Army Troops level. These included the GHQ Printing Company, and Army Troops Companies and Advanced RE Parks.

It is also possible that he became the driver for an RE staff officer at a higher headquarters.

Ron

[thrush]

Hello Bird/Sotonmate

I don't think that a man recruited as a lorry driver would be expected to work with horses. In the ASC the jobs of MT Driver and HT Driver were quite distinct, and the skills are not really interchangeable.

There were very few RE units in 1914-15 which had any form of mechanical transport, all at GHQ or Army Troops level. These included the GHQ Printing Company, and Army Troops Companies and Advanced RE Parks.

It is also possible that he became the driver for an RE staff officer at a higher headquarters.

Ron

Dear Sotonmate and Ron

Thank you so much both of you. I am now convinced that his driving skills would have been recognised, and whatever he drove I imagine it would be much better marginally than slugging it out in the trenches!

I always imagined that the RE would be made up of men that had some prior engineering background in machinery or construction and that would include the transportation of machinery or equipment. But I do know from observation that men who had an engineering background were recriuted into other regiments like artillery etc. There does not seem to be a hard and fast rule that you can assume as Sotonmate advises, but in this particular instance I am looking at three same named men with different skills where it is possible that the previous occupation of one was considered relevant. He was described as Dvr not Sapper.

Thank you both again, your advice is really appreciated.

Best wishes to you both,

Kind regards,

Bird

[sotonmate]

Bird

Another page to feed in to your project ! Again from the Long Long Trail and concerning the RE organisation of a Field Company. Note the number of drivers they list and bear in mind that some of them are horsemen :

http://www.1914-1918.net/whatfieldcoy.htm

Keep smiling !

Sotonmate

[DRIFTER]

I don't know if this is any help as it's a bit off WW1 subjects but just before WW2 my father was ranked as a Driver (RE) and at the time could not drive! He was however a horseman of some note earning medals and cups for jumping and other horse riding/driving activities, so Driver (RE) was definately used at that time for horsemen.

[thrush]

Bird

Another page to feed in to your project ! Again from the Long Long Trail and concerning the RE organisation of a Field Company. Note the number of drivers they list and bear in mind that some of them are horsemen :

http://www.1914-1918.net/whatfieldcoy.htm

Keep smiling !

Sotonmate

Dear Sotonmate and Grandson of John

Thank you so much both of you. Again, that was another fascinating link to the Field Units and I will spend more time looking at the sub links to this. It is such a good resource to know of and I do often look at other aspects of the Long, Long trail to try and build up my knowledge as you can see what is in my imagination and what was reality is far removed. For instance why an earth would they waste the skills of two RAMC carting water? I imagine that anyone could do this albeit important task, perhaps that is because I am also looking for another soldier in the RAMC. I have two other Great Uncles in the RE and their campaigns were largely traced through this source but I confirmed their service through other documention.

You must feel very proud of your father in the second World War, especially doing something he was obviouly very good at, one can only imagine the scenes and the bravery of these men. in handling frightened horses as well as doing his duty. I am convinced you are both right that a driver could be driving multiple forms of transport, and perhaps this related to Joseph Toole too. I am unsure what the next step would be in trying to find facts when there is not anything to go on, but I find it hard to believe that a mans occupation before the war and after it would not be a consideration in placing him appropriately in a unit, seems such a waste of human resources, but I guess that is viewed with 2008 logic! The occupation of Joseph is only one consideration, I have fully eliminated one other Uncle Joe and there are three to go, of these one unfortunately paid the supreme sacrfice. In respect of the Joseph here he is the same age as my Great Uncle, so If I could be absolutely sure of his occupation being relevant then I have only two to go!

Thank you both for helping me so willingly I will persevere as always there will be a clue or a record, where all your advice comes home to roost and I can say confidently we have done it!

Good wishes your replies are most appreciated,

Kindest regards,

Bird

[Ron Clifton]

For instance why an earth would they waste the skills of two RAMC carting water? I imagine that anyone could do this albeit important task

Hello again bird

The RAMC privates were there to ensure the purity of the water supply (using chemical methods) so that it was drinkable. The water itself was carried in a barrel/drum on a two-horsed cart driven by - a Driver of the unit, in this case RE. There were similar arrangements in infantry battalions and other front-line units.

At the risk of labouring the point, I should say that men driving wagons were in the great majority in the Army and they were called Drivers. Sotonmate's comment ".. bearing in mind that some of them were horsemen" should in fact be "... bearing in mind that (in 1914 at least) ALL of them were horsemen." There were no motor vehicles in a Field Company in 1914 and I don't think they acquired any later. the "Drivers ASC" referred to in the link also drove two-horsed General Service wagons.

Of course it is possible that a man trained as a HT driver could also drive MT and vice versa, but the two trades are clearly separated in units with both HT and MT and I still do not think that it would be common to have men who could do both in a field unit.

Ron

[thrush]

Hello again bird

The RAMC privates were there to ensure the purity of the water supply (using chemical methods) so that it was drinkable. The water itself was carried in a barrel/drum on a two-horsed cart driven by - a Driver of the unit, in this case RE. There were similar arrangements in infantry battalions and other front-line units.

At the risk of labouring the point, I should say that men driving wagons were in the great majority in the Army and they were called Drivers. Sotonmate's comment ".. bearing in mind that some of them were horsemen" should in fact be "... bearing in mind that (in 1914 at least) ALL of them were horsemen." There were no motor vehicles in a Field Company in 1914 and I don't think they acquired any later. the "Drivers ASC" referred to in the link also drove two-horsed General Service wagons.

Of course it is possible that a man trained as a HT driver could also drive MT and vice versa, but the two trades are clearly separated in units with both HT and MT and I still do not think that it would be common to have men who could do both in a field unit.

Ron

Thank you so very much Ron, I should have realised that especially after Gallipoli where so many men were downed with dysentry, one of mine included. When I started this I was thinking that the engineers were a separate unit but it is so much more complex than that from what I have read in the links and the advice received. I am really trying hard to understand all the facets of military research when one has nothing to go on, a memory here and there of what my Mother told me, a scrap of information garnered from the Internet, medal cards, etc non of this compares with the information here. I have noticed that some men transferred from a regiment to the service corps and were called drivers and that these were drivers of horse drawn vehicles has really stunned me and stretched my imagination to the reality of this war.

It is such a great pity that many men may soon be forgetten due to not only the passage of time but the lack of written records. I may be on an impossible mission with my Mum's Uncle Joe, but I will post one day whatever I can prove, or disprove.

Thank you again Ron.

Best wishes,

Bird