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Remembered Today:

Soldiers Death Certificate


thrush

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Does anyone know if the age of a soldier killed in action would usually be stated on the death certifcate. I do have the reference thanks to the Forum.

Thank you

Bird

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Bird, The death cert I have for one of "my" men states age 21 " Whats your mans name? perhaps the Forum pals can help without having to buy a death cert. Ralph.

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Bird, The death cert I have for one of "my" men states age 21 " Whats your mans name? perhaps the Forum pals can help without having to buy a death cert. Ralph.

Thanks Ralph I really need his age for confimation. All I know is our Joseph was born in Manchester in 1886, if he was in the Manchester Regiment I cannot be sure as there are other Joseph Toole's to consider but the Manchester forum advised me that he was christened at St Patricks Collyhurst but although I had a search done without a result in the region of his birth time it leaves me to believe that the record does not belong to my close family. I was advised that there are no Joseph Toole's in the AVL's for Hulme.

Name: TOOLE, JOSEPH

Initials: J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Manchester Regiment

Unit Text: 1st Bn.

Date of Death: 14/03/1915

Service No: 2620

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panels 34 and 35.

Memorial: LE TOURET MEMORIAL

I have the above medal card and on the 1901 Census Joseph is an apprentice steam engine fitter, age 14. There are no service records it appears for any of the Toole's in my family, but I have traced four with the help of the medal cards and the addresses, and the The Long, Long Trail sketched their service details. But with Joseph and one other, William Joseph, I am struggling even though I have some data it so hard to confirm that it is the right record to honour their memory as I know they all served.

These are the others that could be my Joseph:

Description Medal card of Toole, Joseph

Corps Regiment No Rank

Lancashire Fusiliers 25103 Private

Labour Corps 701593 Private

[ Not this soldier is the wrong age, wrong place, has pension papers}

Description Medal card of Toole, Joseph

Corps Regiment No Rank

Loyal North Lancashire Regiment 32155 Private

Labour Corps 250962 Private

Description Medal card of Toole, Joseph

Corps Regiment No Rank

Loyal North Lancashire Regiment 18411 Private

Labour Corps 250319 Acting Corporal

Description Medal card of Toole, Joseph

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Engineers 50842 Driver

Why do I persevere with Joseph who died in action, well I have this story that one Great Uncle died from his wounds and his remains were never found. I have also a number of marriages to consider, but one in particular in Prestwich makes me wonder if this belongs to him. He has one son, and this is in 1912 before the war and then no more, very unusual for my family during the early years of a marriage, I may be very well constructing a family history for this soldier without any blood ties to my family, but it does not matter, he is still a Toole to me.

I should add that in the ones I have traced they have all been in the Hulme area of Manchester, including Joseph's brother.

So, if anyone can help me I will be very grateful, and thank you too Ralph for confirming that there could be an age on the death certifcate. That is really helpful to me.

Kindest regards

Bird

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Bird,

Just be aware that the age quoted on my great grandfather's death certificate was incorrect. It stated that he was 36 years old, but he was still only 35.

I suspect that the army knew that he was born on 1880 and that he died in 1916, and so calculated his age as being 36. However he had not yet reached his birthday when he was killed and was therefore only 35.

I appologise if it sounds pedantic, but thought that you may need to be aware if you are looking for an accurate age from a death certificate.

Regards,

Kev Loughnane

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Dear Kev

Thank you so much for your response it does reassure me that there will be an age and even a year out would be acceptable. You see I have narrowed the Joseph's down in the period born in the Manchester area to about two including my Joseph and one of the others born in Salford is not our family and if this one was a soldier he most definitely survived. The question is which service did my Joseph serve. I notice on the Commonwealth War Dead site that not all the ages were given, including Joseph, how sad that also many of these men did not have a next of kin mentioned either. You must be very proud that you found your Great Grandfather. Little did the authorities know how we later generations would be searching so hard to identify them.

Thank you again Kev, just what I wanted regarding an older mans age being stated on his death certificate..

Kindest regards

Pat

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Pat,

to get more info on the Manchester Regiment side, you could try posting on the Manchester Regiment Forum as they may be able to help. Many of their members are also members here but they may miss this one.

Manchesters

Cheers

Peter

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Bird,

Glad to be of assistance.

When I initially checked the CWGC site and found my great grandfather, they had no age or next of kin details listed. As I mentioned to someone else on this forum, I was able to supply them with a copy of his birth certificate, some copies from his army record (Iwas lucky that his record survives at the National Archives) and a copy of his death notice from the local newspaper. They eventually amended their records to show his age at death, and also included his next of kin. And yes - I feel very pleased for having done this!

Good luck.

Regards,

Kev Loughnane

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Pat

If not already done so, then you need to check if his service papers still exist (about 30% survived a fire in the 1940s). Probably by later this year, they will have been uploaded to the Ancestry website.

In the meantime, you would need to view them at either the National Archives or via a Family Research Centre of the Mormon Church. Bearing in mind your location, I appreciate you'd need to pay a researcher to do the former (if you PM me, I can recommend someone).

BTW, the man commemorated on the Le Touret Memorial first went overseas on 12 January 1915. His service number doesnt look like that of a regular soldier to me, so my guess would be this was a chap who enlisted very soon after the declaration of war and joined one of the Territorial battalions. After training, he was reassigned to the 1st Battalion. That said, interpretation of servic enumber information is not an exact science and I've probably guessed wrong as often as guessed right (I sometimes think sticking a pin in the page would be as useful :rolleyes: )

John

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Pat,

to get more info on the Manchester Regiment side, you could try posting on the Manchester Regiment Forum as they may be able to help. Many of their members are also members here but they may miss this one.

Manchesters

Cheers

Peter

Dear Peter

Done that and they are very helpful to me but the one bit of genealogical evidence they could give me of his birth at St Patrick's at Collyhurst he was not in there in the period he should have been according to his birth. I know a lot of the registers are difficult to read and some almost unreadable. So that is why I persevere really.

Thank you so much for your advice Peter.

Kind regards

Bird

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Bird,

Glad to be of assistance.

When I initially checked the CWGC site and found my great grandfather, they had no age or next of kin details listed. As I mentioned to someone else on this forum, I was able to supply them with a copy of his birth certificate, some copies from his army record (Iwas lucky that his record survives at the National Archives) and a copy of his death notice from the local newspaper. They eventually amended their records to show his age at death, and also included his next of kin. And yes - I feel very pleased for having done this!

Good luck.

Regards,

Kev Loughnane

Dear Kev

Thank you so much if I ever do find out for sure I will do exactly what you have done. There are no service papers at the National Archives for any of my Toole's all I have really is the stories my Mum told me a long time ago. Wish I had listened more intently as she could rattle off some of their service numbers!

Good luck and many thanks again,

Bird

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Pat

If not already done so, then you need to check if his service papers still exist (about 30% survived a fire in the 1940s). Probably by later this year, they will have been uploaded to the Ancestry website.

In the meantime, you would need to view them at either the National Archives or via a Family Research Centre of the Mormon Church. Bearing in mind your location, I appreciate you'd need to pay a researcher to do the former (if you PM me, I can recommend someone).

BTW, the man commemorated on the Le Touret Memorial first went overseas on 12 January 1915. His service number doesnt look like that of a regular soldier to me, so my guess would be this was a chap who enlisted very soon after the declaration of war and joined one of the Territorial battalions. After training, he was reassigned to the 1st Battalion. That said, interpretation of servic enumber information is not an exact science and I've probably guessed wrong as often as guessed right (I sometimes think sticking a pin in the page would be as useful :rolleyes: )

John

Dear John

Thank you so very much regarding the information on his number. I checked with the National Archives for service papers and the only ones that survived and helped me very much was a pension record for Richard Toole and this also helped me confirm his brother John too, even though he did not have a pension, his numbers followed closely on and they both came from the Territorial service. Joseph is their couisn. The bombing was very selective with my family. I wonder how they had them filed i.e. in areas, alphabetical etc, but definitely mine did not survive. It was also good to have the date he went overseas it confirms his Star medal it was a 15 Star. Do forgive me, I do not really know much about things military I just would like my familiy's records of service honoured before it is too late and memories have passed and every wee bit of informed information has been helpful.

Thank you again so much your reply has really helped me.

Kindest regards and good wishes,

Pat

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