bierlijn Posted 28 June , 2008 Share Posted 28 June , 2008 Below is a photograph group of RNVR officers. With the invaluable help of horatio2 and his contact book, it is suggested that these are all naval officers, including the ones in early issue khaki uniforms. The sailors in the group appear to be 1 Lieutenant Commander RNVR, 3 Lieutenants RNVR, 9 Sub Lieutenants RNVR (including the ones in khaki, and one Midshipman RNVR (back row 2nd from right.). Other close-ups on request, but for starters I'll post the Lieutenant Commander and Midshipman after this post. Any pointers or suggestions would be very welcome. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 28 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 28 June , 2008 A Lieutenant Commander and Midshipman RNVR. The suggestion is that these are Harold King and the Hon. Vere Harmsworth, and these are Drake Battalion officers. Does anyone have any photos of Commander King or Vere Harmsworth to compare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devonmaid Posted 28 June , 2008 Share Posted 28 June , 2008 Name: Vere Sidney Tudor (The Honourable) Harmsworth Service Branch: Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Unit: Hawke Bn. Rank: Temporary Lieutenant Death Date: 13 Nov 1916 Cause of Death: Killed in action Burial: Ancre British Cemetery, Beaumont-Hamel (FR 339) Service History: Commissioned Temporary Sub Lieutenant RNVR 1/10/14 ; Temporary Lieutenant 10/2/15 ; Collingwood Bn. at Antwerp Oct.1914 (little card reads Aide-de-Camp Drake Bn.) ; Hawke Bn. Officer Commanding 7th Platoon 'B' Company 30/1/15-25/12/15 to UK Leave, rejoined Hawke Bn. as Officer Commanding 'B' Company 25/5/16-13/11/16 DD. Notes: Buried in No.3 Trench Cemetery Q.17 Cent. (No.1) ; 1914 Star returned to Mint 1934 ; Son of 1st Viscount Rothermere, Claridge's Hotel, Brook St., W. London, later of: Warwick House, St. James', London. ; Brother of Captain the Hon. Harold Alfred Vyvyan St. George Harmsworth MC, 2nd Bn. Irish Guards, DOW 12/2/18 aged 23. Not sure if this is the right person or if the info is any use to you. There is no photo . Ellie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devonmaid Posted 28 June , 2008 Share Posted 28 June , 2008 The Honourable Vere Sidney Tudor Harmsworth, b. 25 Sep 1895; educated at Osborne and Dartmouth Naval College. Entered the Royal Navy as a Midshipman. Retired in consequence of deafness caused by gunfire: took service in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve in which he was a Lieut.; was present at the bombardment of Antwerp, October 1914; was interned in Holland, from whence he escaped; served at Gallipoli and in France, and was killed in action at the Battle of Ancre, 13 Nov 1916. The Commanding Officer of his battalion (the Drake Battalion of the Royal Naval Division) wrote of him, "The men of his battalion who survived the action are thrilled with pride in his name. He led his company in the attack on the first German trenches. He saw that these were cleared of the Germans, and advanced with a number of men on the second line. In or near this line he was again wounded, this time on the right shoulder. Almost immediately he got up and collected such men as were near him, and led the attack on the third line. Just before reaching it he was hit by a shell, and instantly killed. During the greater part of this time he was commanding the attacking line, and by his endurance and courage got the men forward at a critical juncture." His father founded the Vere Harmsworth Chair of Naval History at Cambridge in his memory, November, 1918. Taken from the Stirnet website Ellie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 28 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 28 June , 2008 Thanks Ellie - Harmsworth is listed as Midshipman in the October 1914 Navy List (effective date 18 Sep 1914). As far as the dating of the photograph is concerned, the ground looks pretty trampled but hard, maybe September-October. A critical question for dating the photo is when the RND were first issued khaki pattern uniforms. The cap badge of the blues is a wired 'RND' badge (close up if required), while the khakis have a standard 'RN' badge. Is there a significance to one of the khaki officers having a crossing belt while the others are rigged in braces style? Should I repost this in the Uniforms and Insignia section? (or Ships and Navies, or Units and Formations?) (I did think about this before posting it here!) Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 28 June , 2008 Share Posted 28 June , 2008 If we are talking about Lt Cmdr H D King RNVR, who went on to serve with the RN Siege Guns in Flanders and was later Minister of Mines at the time of his death in a yachting accident off Cornwall, that isn't him. I have a photo of King (but not scanned) and his appearance is quite different. This is Vere Harmsworth. As an aside, a single rose inscribed to Harmsworth appears on the RND memorial every year on the anniversary of his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devonmaid Posted 28 June , 2008 Share Posted 28 June , 2008 Hugh I'd try posting under ships and navies, someone is bound to come up with more information for you. Ellie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 28 June , 2008 Share Posted 28 June , 2008 Was Harmsworth ever in the Drake? Fevyer & Wilson have him in the Collingwood while Jerrold has him with the Staff, 1st Brigade After escaping back to England he joined the Hawke and was still with them when he died regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 28 June , 2008 Share Posted 28 June , 2008 It looks like a Gunnery Officers Course to me, gaiters whistles. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 28 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 28 June , 2008 It looks like a Gunnery Officers Course to me, gaiters whistles. ' As mentioned before, most have an 'RND' cap badge. Was there an RND Gunnery Officers Course, maybe at Crystal Palace? The stamp on the back of the photo is from a 'High Holborn' photographer or processor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 28 June , 2008 Share Posted 28 June , 2008 RND would need training in gunnery the same as anyone else, its just the dress and the manner of some, and a couple are wearing sword belts. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 28 June , 2008 Share Posted 28 June , 2008 Was Harmsworth ever in the Drake? Fevyer & Wilson have him in the Collingwood while Jerrold has him with the Staff, 1st Brigade After escaping back to England he joined the Hawke and was still with them when he died regards Michael The October 1914 Navy List (efective date 18 Sep 1914) has him serving as a Midshipman RNVR in Drake Bn., which is strange since he was commissioned as a Sub Lt RNVR just before Antwerp according to his RND Record Card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 29 June , 2008 Share Posted 29 June , 2008 (edited) Thanks H2 - Yes, very strange. Jerrold has the RND getting their "active service uniform and equipment" in December 1914 [see page 49 of his 'RND'] The RND's artillery was never formed, but I suppose that does not exclude the possibility of a gunnery course. The RND was a bit spread out in late 1914; Crystal Palace, Forton Barracks (Cyclist Company), Alnwick (Drake Battalion for coast defence duty), St. Margarets Bay near Martin Hill Station (Divisional Engineers), Walmer and Deal (until Blandford Camp was ready), Blandford (commencing with the Nelsons from 27th November). Was anyone still at Betteshanger at this time? The other thought which occurs to me is how rare it is to find a Midshipman in the RND. I hope that one of our experts will explain, but I would guess that it was an 'age' thing; they were old enough to serve at sea, but not yet old enough to serve in the infantry on land? Having said that there are a few who appear on the official list of officers who served 'around Antwerp, October 1914' (see Len Sellers' magazine 'RND' issue No.8, March 1999, page 626-633) Hawke Battalion Midshipman Hubert W. Campion [also serving in the Hawke at this time was Lt Commander Colmore (but given as RN and not RNVR by Fevyer & Wilson)] Nelson Battalion Midshipman Donald C. Daly * Midshipman Stewart Owler [Fevyer & Wilson have him as Lieutenant RNVR] [also serving in the Nelson at this time were Lt Commander (Commander per F & W) C.O.D. Bridge & Lt Commander H. L. Cheston] Howe Battalion Midshipman G. Tothril [F & W have him as Sub Lieut, RNVR. DD (died) 27 March 1916] [also serving in the Howe at this time was Lt Commander Ledgard (given as RN & not RNVR by F & W; DD 23 July 1917] regards Michael * PS: Midshipman Daly appears in the group photograph of Nelson officers in 'Nelson at War 1914-1918' by Capt Roy Swales, 2004 Edited 29 June , 2008 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 29 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 29 June , 2008 To direct further enquiries, could the assumption be made that from the number of officers and the rank structure of the group, that these are the officers of one of the RND Battalions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 29 June , 2008 Share Posted 29 June , 2008 RNVR midshipmen were thick on the ground in the early days of the RND. The RND midshpmen in the Oct 1914 Navy List are: Drake: VT Harmsworth; Benbow: AD Boot, TG Bedwell; Hawke: ECW Vane-Thompson, HW Campion; Collingwood: W Bolton, AH Maxwell; Nelson: DC Daly, S Owler; Howe: JC Denholm, G Tothill, KE Parkes; Hood: HP Bayliss; Anson: W Rellie. In the (post-Antwerp) Dec 1914 Navy List (effective date 18 Nov 14): Drake: NONE; Nelson: S Owler; DC Daly; Howe: KE Parkes, GFJ Tothill, JAH Chancellor; Hood: NONE; Anson: W Rellie. Vane-Thompson and Campion (formerly of Hawke) are now shown serving at Crystal palace. Harmsworth (formerly of Drake) is shown "Attached to Depot" (ie interned in Holland) as Aide-de-Camp to the Commodore 1st (Naval) Brigade, together with Boot and Sub Lt Bedwell (ex-Benbow) and Maxwell (ex-Collingwood). Denholm (ex-Howe) had transferred to Anson as a Sub Lt. No midshipmen appear to have embarked for Gallipoli in February. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 29 June , 2008 Share Posted 29 June , 2008 Why do two officers have twin shoulder straps while one has the standard Sam Browne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 29 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 29 June , 2008 In 'Military Modelling' 1985, it says the following:- "Early on, when the Royal Naval Division was building up at Crystal Palace, many of the officers wore the full naval rig, but when the sailors marched in their "blues", the officers led them in their new khaki service dress." "Sam Browne belts with a strap over the right shoulder were au rigor, and breeches and high boots seem to have been worn when possible, although high reaching puttees were worn by the lower ranks of officers." Back row, far left is wearing puttees as is the 2nd, 4th and 6th along. All the rest are wearing gaiters except back row 3rd, 5th and front row 2nd and 4th, who have none. Therefore puttees 4, gaiters 6, nothing 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 29 June , 2008 Share Posted 29 June , 2008 "Sam Browne belts with a strap over the right shoulder were au rigor, I assume that`s the same as "de rigeur"! That would be the normal Sam Browne then which doesn`t account for the other two gentlemen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 29 June , 2008 Share Posted 29 June , 2008 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Jun 29 2008, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why do two officers have twin shoulder straps while one has the standard Sam Browne? In these early days of the RND 'leather-wear' was purchased and worn to the entire personal satisfaction of the naval officer concerned. Both styles are commonly seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 29 June , 2008 Share Posted 29 June , 2008 ' As mentioned before, most have an 'RND' cap badge. Was there an RND Gunnery Officers Course, maybe at Crystal Palace? The stamp on the back of the photo is from a 'High Holborn' photographer or processor. Further research has revealed these to be RNVR cap badges (RNV not RND) - this from the web: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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