Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Vote for Great war project


Desmond7

Recommended Posts

Rob

It is rare that I get angry about posts on this Forum but how dare you question the motives about why I research.

Hiow dare you be so insulting as to describe my post as bickering

How dare you suggest that envy plays any part in my comments.

How dare you presume that others who research memorials are copying this project. Not only is it offensive, it's just so silly - we all know the first internet project was the Northallerton one.

How dare you belittle the work of other memorial researchers by suggesting that no precedent is set about funding.

How dare you presume that my own work is insufficient to affect others thinking.

I find the whole tenure of your comments both most patronising AND deeply offensive.

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cast my vote as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Enter Desmond Kofi Annan (or woteffer he was called) ...

Whooa there troops ..

In the words of the warden in Cool Hand Luke, what we have here is a lack of communication!

From John's point of view .... I know Harters well and not for one moment do I think he was having a dig at the project. He, like many others, embarked on a labour of love for the pure joy (and masochism) of research and resulting knowledge. I count myself amongst that contingent. John, despite a turn down for outside funding, continued with his quest. Facts, indisputable etc. He invest3ed his own time, energy and finance. And the results of his research are available to all free of charge.

So I'd say to Rob - who is also a forum mate - Harters has a point ... if I am reading him right, and he can speak for himself well enough, I understood him to be saying 'fair does' to the Derry project for getting this far etc but bear in mind that lots of other worthy research schemes don't get diddly squat from funding sources. Fair precis?

From Rob's point of view ... I know your commitment to both this cause and the research of WW1 history is 110%. Both you and John have been very helpful to me in so many ways and it pains me to see what I perceive to be a genuine mis-reading of John's motives causing a rift.

I trust neither of you will fall out with me for this - you are too good as friends and too valuable as sources of information.

So, in all sincerity, can I ask for a time of reflection?

BTW when I was doing my website etc etc ... I was asked to fill in a 15-page document which would, I was told snare me £15000 in funding for a website, book, museum display etc etc

I took one look at the red-tape, listened with growing disbelief to what this would cost (and exactly how much of that would be devoted to creating MORE red tape) and bailed out of the meeting. I did a freewebs thingy which is far from perfect, we hosted (with local enthusiasm and at no cost) the best WW1 musuem exhib ever seen in the district and if I wanted to I could get the book published with minimal support advertising in a matter of weeks. But I'm stagnant at the mo, so I can't be arsed. This is just to show that I have been down the same route as many ... I can see the benefits and the posterior pain in the funding game.

I am proud to have both of you as cyber friends. Please, in the cause of WW1 research, ge into no-man's land ... Rob can bring a Bottle of Bushmills (or a good old Ulster Fry should that be Harter's choice) and Harter's can bring some 'orrible northern ale and a fish supper. Let's have the June truce.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fair precis?

Reasonably, Dessie. Reasonably.

If the Derry project has received this massive funding as part of a "bringing the NI communities together" thing, then that is one thing. And I certainly have no problem with that.

If, on the other hand, it has received funding as a "local heritage" project (which is my reading of the Lottery's website) then, yes, I am having a dig at the way the NL "Good Causes" fund hands out the money. It has probably not acted consistently in its approaches but, as I said earlier, the precedent is now probably set for many other war memorial research projects to apply for funding their research, websites and publications - if they can tailor the project (as most could) towards community involvement. It'll be great - many folk are disadvantaged from being able to research properly due to lack of cash (I'm fortunate in that respect).

And, as for you being the Kofi Annan on this thread, I'll just have to remain the Robert Mugabe. Innit.

J

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Des,

Thanks for being ref, but remember Derry's 'watchword'.

To use a Catchphrase from an Ulsterman- 'say what you see'!

John i can only read your post [9] one way.

Read my posting a little slower, i said-

'original projects are what wins lottery support not copying others'. This was not refering to the diamond war memorial project in particular this was refering to any project.

To get funding a project has to stand out from others, so there is no point in you saying a precedent has been set we can now have hundreds of war memorial projects, thats silly.

Nothing wrong with copying a good format though!

I also said 'look what won last year......this certainly does not set a precedent', or can we now expect lots of theatre projects on the great war.

You infered that the diamond project got funding because of where it is ie Northern Ireland, so wheres that from John, a pressumption maybe?

This particular project is different. Londonderry War memorial is one of the most attacked memorials in the UK. It has withstood years of abuse because of what it is perceived to stand for - British soldiers!

Since the Diamond War Memorial Project started there has been a noticable change. To date [as far as i know], this year there have been no attacks on the memorial and the gates around it can remain unlocked through-out the day, again this is a first.

For your information the original concept of the project was not for a web-site. The idea was to collate all the information possibly for a book.

It was then realised the cost of a book with 500+ pages would be prohibitive and therefore the web-site, which are far cheaper and easier, was decided on and this had no impact on the funding.

It is probable that its the addition of the web-site that has got the project nominated for an award.

The man who collected all the information, Trevor Temple, was un-employed when he started his work many years ago, see post 11.

He did his research for the same reason i and many others do theirs. Because we like to.

And John, why do YOU presume we all would know North Allerton web-site was the first. I'm afraid i didn't but then had no reason to.

Long before web-sites became the norm books were published and i'm glad to say still are, in the North of Ireland Robert Thompson's books on the fallen are well known, he now has seven completed.

Ask Des about Robert Thompson [well you are the ref Des or is it Kofi now?]

I have looked at your site John and think you have done a fine job, to be proud of. I think at the time if you had pressed your case a bit you may have got some funding.

Me i do not mind who gets funding from whatever source if it promotes the rememberence of the Great War Soldiers and say good luck to them.

Gwyn- i would like to say your particular web-site is exceptional and truly worthy of heritage recognition. You should apply for funding as these buildings are getting lost to the memory and a formal record would be brilliant.

Anyway thats enough from me.

John not sure about Robert Mugabe, more like Victor Mugabe [he's the African version]. No offence intended to anyone of African origin called Victor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok - as they say - fair digs all round.

I'm an Ulsterman. I come from the old red white and blue community who believed we were as British as Coronation Street. We made mistakes and those hwo governed us from Westminster can take their fair share of the blame in that regard too.

I DO believe that the L/Derry War memorial Project is hugely worthy ... even more so than my own town. The reason? It has an impact on today's society. And I want to believe So strongly in a new society. I want to be confident in where I have come from. I will give the historical reasons to anyone as to why my forefathers did what they did and why they were once lauded for it and were then demonised for it.

John is elsehwhere at the mo so he can't play on this thread ..

he's a grumpy git but he's still my mate BUT if any Great War Project is worth a hoot .. this is one. When you have the ancestors of provies beside the ancestors of Uvers then you have something unique.

Because this comes to the core of the thing - WW1 still has political amd meanginful remafications in Ireland and with all due respect to John, the fact that lads from HIS community (and we shoudl all be proud of 'em) died in the GW.. means nowt in political terms in Greater Mancs.

It means VAST things to people here.

When I told my mother (who has just been S.Dementia at 87 diagnosed/thank god she is in happy land) that her da was in the old UBF she nearly punmched me.

She said: "He was a British soldier."

Quis Separabit (The Real Meaning)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gwyn- i would like to say your particular web-site is exceptional and truly worthy of heritage recognition. You should apply for funding as these buildings are getting lost to the memory and a formal record would be brilliant.

Thank you very much, Rob. To be fair to Graeme, it's his project really as it's his database. :) I happened to agree with him that there is a need for a proper record of an overlooked heritage.

Gwyn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Des,

You should have been a diplomat! You've hit the nail on the head. I can see it may be difficult for people with no connection to Northern Ireland to understand just how much the First War is still remembered. In that respect we have been lucky that a subject we have a passion for is regularly brought to the fore in Newspapers and on TV in a way that perhaps it never was in England.It is a cultural thing and one i like you Des am proud of.

How many of us have been to the Ulster Tower for the 1st July service, why do so many English people go. To remember those from Ulster who died or because its the best service on the Somme?

Well now before they go this year they can have a look at the Diamond Memorial web-site and see the names of the 115 boys from Londonderry, Protestant and Catholic, killed on the 1st July and give them a few seconds thought.

This is why we should all support any project that keeps their memory alive, funded or not.

On the subject of funding, how much do people think it costs to run the Tower or pay for the purchase of Thiepval wood?

The reason Northern Ireland gets the funding is because the MP's and Councillors get behind the projects and can lobby support.

There is little support in this way in England for these type of projects as was shown by that given to John.

Gwyn,

The old Drill Hall Stafford Street Wolverhampton got a mention in the local paper last night. Thankfully only as a reference to the building adjoining it, which is of the same age and is to be converted into apartments. Funny that they can still use the Drill Hall by name as a notable landmark.

I think the University own it, although not sure. I wonder if they might sell to a developer at some point as its in a prime spot.

West Park drill Hall went to Houses and apartments some years ago.

Rob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest trevor temple
Des,

You beat me to it [good posting]!

I will admit that i am biased towards this project but then i have had the advantage of seeing some of the work that has gone into it and the interest its raised.

I appreciate its value in helping a section of the community that for too long has had a part of its history put away in the cupboard and not talked about.

Of the 756 named on the memorial it is about 50/50 Catholic and Protestant, in addition there are another 300-400 men who were not included for various reasons that will now be remembered.

It is a tribute to Mary and Trevor the work they have put in to promote the project across the two communities.

I was present at the launch of the Memorial diary at Christmas in Londonderry. There were approximately 120 people present of whom i believe 100 were from the Nationalist community and it was a pleasure to be there.

This probably would not have been possible just a few years ago and is indicitive of the changes taking place.

Most of us research large numbers of soldiers, thats why we are regulars on the Forum and i'm sure we'd all love to be payed to do it, but the

fact is they applied for funding and got it, the lottery funding application is open to all 'good causes'.

I can't honestly say my own research is one, so i say good luck to them!

Rob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest trevor temple

I would like to thank Robert, Dessie, Catherine, and all others who voted for the Diamond War Memorial Project.

Many thanks,

Trevor Temple

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
i said-

'original projects are what wins lottery support not copying others'. This was not refering to the diamond war memorial project in particular this was refering to any project.

To get funding a project has to stand out from others, so there is no point in you saying a precedent has been set we can now have hundreds of war memorial projects, thats silly.

Let me be crystal clear here, so there is absolutely no possibility of any misunderstanding:

I think it’s great that the project received £50k funding and I am really chuffed for the recipients.

I say this as I know how many hours I’ve spent on the Stockport project since 2001 and know it would never have progressed as far as it has in the seven years if I’d had to fit in research round a fulltime job. I also know how much it has cost me to have the website professionally designed and maintained. And how much I’ve spent in visiting the National Archives and other research sources, or paying for NA downloads and the many other ancillary bits of spending.

We shall just have to hope that, in terms of setting a precedent, Rob is wrong in his interpretation of the Lottery’s funding rules. I hope he is. I believe he is. As seen below, the funding rules make no mention of success being dependent on originality (and I can find nothing elsewhere on their website - others may know if I've missed it somewhere). Of course, if Rob was to be correct, then there would be no further funding to create new museums (as it’s already funded one in Stockport) or funding for archaeological projects (as it’s already funded one in Manchester) or funding for war memorial research projects (as it’s already funded one in Derry).

That just makes no sense to me. So I would urge any considering a memorial research project to think about making an application to the Heritage Fund. The basic criteria (as lifted from their website) are:

To “help people to learn about their own and other people's heritage.”

And one or both of the following:

“Conserve the UK's diverse heritage for present and future generations to experience and enjoy.”

“Help more people, and a wider range of people, to take an active part in and make decisions about heritage.”

So, fix the concept of your bid firmly in the individual heritage of your community and ensure a heavy emphasis on the “learning” aspects. If it was me, I would also point to the similarities between the nature of your project and the nature of the “precedent” Diamond project. Of course, it’s not going to be successful if it’s a “hobby” website but I know, from times when my advice has been sought, that these research projects are often linked to other community events. Oh, and make sure you apply before starting the project – my understanding is the Lottery will not fund projects already in progress.

Good luck.

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't know if I was to late, But I have just voted " as they say in the north vote early and vote often" tryed to vote again, but it woulden let me. Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...