WelSh or WelCh

[ralphjd]

Refer Grumpys post number 11 says never Welch. Ralph.

[FROGSMILE]

Emphatically not!

Anyone who has read my carefully crafted explanation could surely not misunderstand it that badly?

Welch was English, not Germanic.

Old English was unequivocally Germanic in origin and that was my meaning. It is aslo not insignificant that the 'bulk' of the period when the 'ch' spelling was used for both 'Scotch' and 'Welch' was during the reign of Hanoverian Kings. I have seen these interpretations repeated many times over the years and by various authors of military books, but I am sure there will be those who still differ, as is their rightin a free country.

[Dragon]

Old English was unequivocally Germanic in origin and that was my meaning.

David said:

The old English spelling was Welch

not 'the Old English spelling', which would have been Welisc or Wælisc. (Apologies, I can't add the diacritics in the forum font). By the 16c Welsh was the only form in general use.

[FROGSMILE]

David said:

not 'the Old English spelling', which would have been Welisc or Wælisc. (Apologies, I can't add the diacritics in the forum font). By the 16c Welsh was the only form in general use.

"The Anglo-Saxons who invaded and conquered England after the Romans left had no love for the Celtic people already occupying southern Britain and eventually overwhelmed them, except in certain distant western parts where communications were difficult, where there was little of value and where resistance was particularly fierce. So Wales, along with Cornwall, survived with its customs and language largely intact. The word Welsh is actually an Old English word meaning “foreigner; slave” and at first was applied by the Anglo-Saxons to all the native peoples of Britain. As you might guess, the word Welsh is not used by the Welsh: they call their language Cymraeg, their country Cymru and themselves Cymry. Another form of the Anglo-Saxon word was Welch, which now survives only in the name of the regiment The Royal Welch Fusiliers; another variant has become the surname Walsh".

The Anglo Saxons were of course a Germanic people and they originated Old English.

Hutchinson's Dictionary has this to say: People of Wales; see also Celt. The term is thought to be derived from an old Germanic term for ‘foreigner’, and so linked to Walloon (Belgium) and Wallachian (Romania). It may also derive from the Latin Volcae, the name of a Celtic people of France.

[Nick Farr]

Were the Guards ever Welch?

No, never...always Welsh!

By Army Order No 56 of February 1920, a long standing dispute between the War Office and the Welch regiment was finally resolved when the regiment was allowed to change the method of spelling its title to the 'Old English' version 'Welch' which had been used by the Adjutant General in his letter in 1831 , which confirmed a Royal decision to link the 41st Foot with Wales. A capbadge with the spelling 'Welsh' is almost certain to date from the First World War.

[geraint]

The 24th Regiment of Foot became the Royal Welch Fusiliers during Hanoverian times, when the influence of Germanic Court English on the State was immense. The Welsh have always strived to prove a long historical individuality within the realm of England, and have often been derided by the English for that. The 'older' the word, the more it proved the pedigree of the Welsh within the English state. The small, but not uninfluential Primrose Hill Welsh professional grouping, would have proposed "Welch" as opposed to "Welsh" as it sounded more archaic, and therefore gave a finer pedigree to Wales and all things Welsh/Welch.

As a passing thought, you may well be interested to know that the motto of the Prince of Wales Ich Dien is not German for I Serve. It's Welsh - Eich Dyn - Your Man; which makes 100% sense when you remember that the first prince of Wales (the future Edward II 1290) was presented as a small baby to the Welsh people as a prince who spoke no English as "Your man" Eich Dyn. (Eich - pronounced as in Eichman. Dyn as in Dinstale).

There the lesson endeth!!

[FROGSMILE]

The 24th Regiment of Foot became the Royal Welch Fusiliers during Hanoverian times, when the influence of Germanic Court English on the State was immense. The Welsh have always strived to prove a long historical individuality within the realm of England, and have often been derided by the English for that. The 'older' the word, the more it proved the pedigree of the Welsh within the English state. The small, but not uninfluential Primrose Hill Welsh professional grouping, would have proposed "Welch" as opposed to "Welsh" as it sounded more archaic, and therefore gave a finer pedigree to Wales and all things Welsh/Welch.

As a passing thought, you may well be interested to know that the motto of the Prince of Wales Ich Dien is not German for I Serve. It's Welsh - Eich Dyn - Your Man; which makes 100% sense when you remember that the first prince of Wales (the future Edward II 1290) was presented as a small baby to the Welsh people as a prince who spoke no English as "Your man" Eich Dyn. (Eich - pronounced as in Eichman. Dyn as in Dinstale).

There the lesson endeth!!

Geraint,

I agree with the ghist of what you say but would add 2 caveats:

1. The Royal Welch Fusiliers were the 23rd of Foot and not the 24th (the latter were the 2nd Warwickshires in 1782, but became the South Wales Borderers in 1881.
2. The motto Ich Dien was allegedly taken directly from the arms of the blind King John of Bohemia who was killed at the battle of Crecy in 1346, wherupon his arms were awarded to the young Black Prince by his father.

The emblem and motto of King John of Bohemia; blind and elderly at the time of the Battle of Creçy, King John rode into battle flanked by two of his knights, his horse strapped to their’s. All the members of the King’s party died in the battle.

In the course of the battle John, the blind King of Bohemia, riding at the Black Prince’s position, was struck down with his accompanying knights.

After the battle, the Black Prince, according to tradition, adopted the emblem of the King of Bohemia, the three white feathers, and his motto “Ich Dien” (I serve); still the emblem of the Prince of Wales.

The royal court language of Bohemia at that time was German and the motto is indeed German, although the Welsh translation may well take a similar form.

[Hywyn]

Can I continue in the (what I take to be tongue in cheek!) explanation given by Geraint re Ich Dien and explain the origin of the saying 'Welshing' i. e renege on a deal.

This came about soon after Edward 1 had built his castles and had had big walls put around the town to save the English settlers from annhilation by the Welsh in the surrounding countryside. As time went on some of these settlers, having built up a good debt, would do a moonlight flit into the surrounding country side and therefore Welsh themselves.

Don't know if it's true but sounds pretty good to me. :-)

Hywyn