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Remembered Today:

WelSh or WelCh


Guest KevinEndon

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Guest KevinEndon

I have seen posts saying that its WelSh and some say WelCh, as in Welsh/Welch guards, which is correct please.

Kevin

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"WELCH" is pre 1914 & post WW1 Spelling

changed to non Germanic "WELSH" for the Great War Period;IIRC

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I'm sure the Grumpmeister will drop by with the definitive, but I believe the spelling Welsh was used in the GW, with reversion to the more historically-correct Welch in the 20's. That's for the RWF and Welsh/Welch Regiment, that is. I don't think the South Wales Borderers became the South Walec Borderers. B)

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I'm sure the Grumpmeister will drop by with the definitive, but I believe the spelling Welsh was used in the GW, with reversion to the more historically-correct Welch in the 20's. That's for the RWF and Welsh/Welch Regiment, that is. I don't think the South Wales Borderers became the South Walec Borderers. B)

That is correct, the spelling was Germanic as: The 23rd Regiment or the Royal Regiment of Welch Fuzileers in around 1762 (I don't have my books to hand) but later changed to the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, which it stayed throughout The Great War. From around 1922 (again I do not have my books to check) it reverted to the 'ancient spelling' of the Royal Welch Fusiliers. The Welsh Regiment changed their title to Welch at the same time, although as a regiment they only really dated from 1881, being a merger of the 41st Welsh (previously 'Invalids' Regt) and 69th South Lincolnshire at that time.

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Changed to WELCH in 1920. Ralph.

Thanks Ray, I could not remember for sure, 1920 or 22, but the latter was of course when the Southern Irish Regts were disbanded.

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So Welch to Welsh was on similar grounds as Battenberg to Mountbatten.

I wonder did the composer Edward German (later Sir Edward) revert to being Edward Jones for the duration? His Welsh Rhapsody (1904) wouldn't need to be changed however.

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From my book Duty Done:

A visitor to the old Western Front, pausing to look at headstones or memorials to the missing, might be sufficiently observant to notice that two spellings, Welch and Welsh, coexist. The old English spelling was Welch, but coexisted with Welsh, so that for example in 1727 there is the ‘King’s Own Royal Regiment of Welch Fusiliers’. Again, in 1768 the spelling was most commonly Welch, but by 1815, the year of Waterloo, Welsh was the preferred version and retained this official status until 1920. Thus, during the Great War and for a short time afterwards, all official publications such as the Army List, Orders of Battle and ODIGW together with SDIGW unequivocally used Welsh [and not just for RWF, but also the Welsh Regiment]. Regimental badges and Colours also bore this spelling.

None of which explains why two versions should be found on headstones. Members of the Regiment clung to the old Welch for all internal purposes, for correspondence and indeed for the official War Diary, so that there is little doubt that soldiers fought and in many cases died as Royal Welch Fusiliers and might well have wished to be commemorated as such. And so commemorated they were, in the first instance, an arrangement formalised by Army Order 56 of 1920 which approved the change to Welch for the Regiment and also the Welch Regiment. Reasonably enough the CWGC adopted this spelling and so the great majority of headstones etc bear a badge with Welch and the soldier’s regiment engraved in full in the same style. However, since 1985 the CWGC policy [and it is quoted here exactly] ‘has been that as headstones need replacement, they are replaced by ones bearing Welsh.’ The policy was adopted after the so-called miss-spelling was brought to their attention.

The Regiment is aware of this state of affairs. It seems less than satisfactory that for many years to come the two spellings will coexist, often on neighbouring graves. More importantly, it does those who died some small disservice.

A sense of humour is required of the historian, so that one notes with glee that the official letter from the War Office, dated 27 January 1920 and announcing the change to Welch to take effect at once is addressed to the Colonel of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and that when the Major commanding the Depôt forwarded a copy of the letter to the Colonel in charge of Records, No 4 District, on 1 February 1920, he signed himself as Commanding Depôt Royal Welsh Fusiliers. An exchange to savour.

The Welsh Guards have never been otherwise.

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Guest KevinEndon

Thanks one and all.

Is it possible that non Welsh soldiers killed/died of wounds were given Welsh on their headstones and Welsh soldiers were given Welch on theirs or was it just what the stone mason was given to enscribe.

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Kevin I think the answer to your query is no. The mason would always inscribe what he was told. It would just be another stone to him.

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So Welch to Welsh was on similar grounds as Battenberg to Mountbatten.

Or German Shepherd to Alsatian.

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Or German Shepherd to Alsatian.

Emphatically not!

Anyone who has read my carefully crafted explanation could surely not misunderstand it that badly?

Welch was English, not Germanic.

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No, David, you are perfectly clear.

It is what you wrote to me in 2006 when I consulted you on the spelling to use in our Drill Halls website and I thought your explanation was completely unambiguous.

Gwyn

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During the first two weeks of September 1915, members of the 1/4th Welsh were attatched to the 2nd SWB, the War Diary for the SWB refers to them as Welch.

In 'Goodbye to All That' Sassoon refers to his own regiment as the Royal Welch Fusiliers & their fellow countrymen as the Welsh Regiment.

The Welch Regiment can trace its origins from its constituent regiments back to the Regiment of Invalids formed from - among others - Pensioners of the Royal Hospital Chelsea (hence the pelling) in 1688.

Jon

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The Welch Regiment can trace its origins from its constituent regiments back to the Regiment of Invalids formed from - among others - Pensioners of the Royal Hospital Chelsea (hence the pelling) in 1688.

Ah, pensioners pell whilst soldiers spell!

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So Welch to Welsh was on similar grounds as Battenberg to Mountbatten.

The sources I have list the following titles:

The Welsh Guards

1915 - The Welsh Guards

Royal Welch Fusiliers:

1688 - 1727 Known by the Colonel's name

1727 - 1751 The Royal Welsh Fusiliers

1751 - 1881 The 23rd (Royal Welch Fusiliers) Regiment of Foot

1881 - 1920 The Royal Welsh Fusiliers

1920 - The Royal Welch Fusiliers

The Welch Regiment

1881 - 1920 The Welsh Regiment

1920 - The Welch Regiment

No mention of them being Welch pre -1914 and changing to Welsh during the war because of Germanic spelling.

Cheers

Chris

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