Sling swivel on SMLE MKIII trigger guard

[peregrinvs]

Hi,

One for the Lee-Enfield gurus: what was the idea behind having provision to fit a sling swivel on the front of the SMLE MKIII trigger guard? (which I believe was changed to a breach cover tie loop on the MKIII*)

Was it a hangover from the positions of the sling swivels on the Martini-Henry?

Thanks,

Mark

[grantsmil]

In short the answer is yes.

The sling swivel positioned in the front of the magazine well was maintained throughout the development of the Lee rifle. The position of the sling swivel was changed to the rear of the butt stock with the introduction of the Lee-Enfield. By this time the swivel by the magazine was also used to secure the chain of the magazine. Later the swivel became metal loop to secure the canvas action cover.

[peregrinvs]

In short the answer is yes.

The sling swivel positioned in the front of the magazine well was maintained throughout the development of the Lee rifle. The position of the sling swivel was changed to the rear of the butt stock with the introduction of the Lee-Enfield. By this time the swivel by the magazine was also used to secure the chain of the magazine. Later the swivel became metal loop to secure the canvas action cover.

Thanks. In the case of my 1913 Enfield SMLE, would it have come out of the factory with a sling swivel in the front of the magazine well, or was it an optional addition?

Mark

[grantsmil]

It is unlikely that a rifle made in 1913 had a sling swivel attached to the front of the magazine well. That part looks to have disappeared off the list of component parts about 1907 to 1909. I am sure that is someone has the time to trawl through the List of Changes some more detailed information can be found.

A very good book on the subject is "The British Service Lee" by Ian Skennerton

[auchonvillerssomme]

Surely the provision to fit a swing swivel doesn't exist on these SMLE's. The actual fitting wouldn't carry a sling swivel, they aren't robust enough.

Mick

[auchonvillerssomme]

How could the loop at any time have been configured for a sling?

Mick

[TonyE]

Mick

The wire loop in your photograph is a feature of the Mark III* and is used to secure the canvas action cover. It is possible that some Mark IIIs made during the transition period (1916) were also fitted with this.

When the SMLE was being developed the trial models also had the wire loop, but in that case it was a left over from the time that the magazine was secured to the rifle by a chain. When the SMLE Mark I was introduced in 1902 the wire loop was omitted and replaced by a swivel lug, but without a swivel fitted. This practice continued with subsequent Marks of SMLE (including those converted from long rifles) until the Mark III* when the loop was re-introduced but for a different purpose.

Again, when the SMLE Mark V was under development (SMLE with rear aperture sight) the trial models had the swivel lug and some even had the swivel fitted, yet the production models reverted to the wire loop. All subsequent models, SMLE Mark VI, No.4, No.5 retained the wire loop.

Complicated isn't it?

Regards,

TonyE

[grantsmil]

How could the loop at any time have been configured for a sling?

The question is not about the loop, but why was the sling swivel fixture was still on rifles during WW1, as seen in this Canadian issued 1917 Enfield made ShtLE III*

As Tony said, "Complicated isn't it?"

[auchonvillerssomme]

Thank you grantsmill that was going to be my next question having just sought some advice, do you have a picture of the original fittings.

Mick

[John Thorne]

All but the very last production Mk. I SMLE's had the magazine linked to the trigger guard by a single link, just as the Long Lees did. The picture below show a 1904 BSA Mk. I, with its unmodified Mk. I magazine linked to the trigger guard. This feature was continued in production until late 1905, when the link and link loop were omitted, and a trigger guard with the sling swivel attachment was provided. The LoC reference is 13509 (paragraphs dated 30 September 1905). This is a few months earlier than the LoC entry for the SMLE Mk. I*, LoC 13577, earliest date listed 27 March 1906.

The swivel lugs were omitted and a wire loop "for the attachment of the breech cover" added in the introduction of the SMLE Mk. III*, LoC entry 17622, dated 2 January 1916. However, the introduction of the SMLE Mk. III* was considered temporary at the time. The first paragraph of the entry reads "In future manufacture, rifles of the above mentioned pattern MAY [emphasis added] embody any of the following modifications: ...", this followed by a list of mods including the change from swivel lugs to wire loop. These changes were not mandatory, but were wartime expedient only.

It's also worth noting that List of Changes entry dates are only approximately related to what was actually done in the real world. Many times, the entry documents something that had already been done, sometimes years before. In the case of the 1916 trigger guard change, existing stocks of the old style guards would have been used up, perhaps long after the January 1916 date. Picture a load of new parts being dumped into a parts bin on top of the older ones, and the early parts surfacing at random and being used later on, as with the 1917 dated SMLE Grant showed us above.

[peregrinvs]

Thanks to everyone for the very informative replies. I won't be troubling my MKIII with a superfluous sling swivel, although I did briefly swap the front sling swivel on to the trigger guard for my own amusement. A perfect fit.

Mark