Moston Posted 10 June , 2008 Share Posted 10 June , 2008 It's been annoying the hell out of me for years...but some of you may have some advice. FACTS: My maternal grandmother (Maiden name JENKINS) had 3 brothers, one died in Flu epidemic in 1919, one lived to be an old man and one died in WW1.... His name? - William Jenkins - of which there are loads killed. He would have enlisted to 'escape' the restrictions and privations of an orphanage in Wolverhampton where he had lived since 1907 when his parents died within 3 weeks of each other. The shocking thing...the thing that's pushing me...is that the absolute OLDEST he could have been if he'd died on the last day of the war would have been 14. Therefore the likelihood is that he is in reality the youngest of the boy soldiers to have been killed? My problem is....he's most likely to have enlisted under a false name, lied about his age and most likey run away to enlist. Guess I'm stuffed? Has anyone got any suggestions as to what I can possibly do to maybe find out a bit more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izzy Posted 10 June , 2008 Share Posted 10 June , 2008 s.d.g.w will narrow the name down to a location where was he born or resided ,what where the local regiments he may have enlisted in the locality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moston Posted 11 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 June , 2008 s.d.g.w will narrow the name down to a location where was he born or resided ,what where the local regiments he may have enlisted in the locality Local Regt would have been South Staffs - possibly if he travelled/ran away closest alternative could have been the Warwicks - or anyone else !? I tried SDGW but there are no matches that make sense or I could be confident of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 11 June , 2008 Share Posted 11 June , 2008 i have read that 6322 john condon royal munster fusiliers was kia at age 14 ???. mike. erth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moston Posted 11 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 June , 2008 i have read that 6322 john condon royal munster fusiliers was kia at age 14 ???. mike. erth. Spot on Mike - he is indeed the youngest, aged 14 at date of death. The point I was trying to make is that my Gt Uncle would have been younger UNLESS he was killed on the very last day of the war...which is unlikely. IF my Gt Uncle did indeed die aged 13 or under then it's a shame the fact he was the youngest isn't known. It's annoying isn't it !?! It never ceases to amaze me how lads of 14 (and younger!) got to action on the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 11 June , 2008 Share Posted 11 June , 2008 Spot on Mike - he is indeed the youngest, aged 14 at date of death. Except he was almost certainly the best part of 20 years old at the time of his death: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:wI_Sq...=1&ie=UTF-8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moston Posted 11 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 June , 2008 Except he was almost certainly the best part of 20 years old at the time of his death: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:wI_Sq...=1&ie=UTF-8 Crikey ! - I never knew any of that !? Maybe I'll never be able to 'prove' anything about my Gt Uncle - it just grates on me that his grave (if he has one?) will have never been visited by a relative - as he'd have a different name and age. I visit the western front regularly and to know that one of these men is my Gt Uncle ...but which one? - is very frustrating....add to that the fact that if his grave were 'known' it'd be one of the most visited - being probably the Youngest boy soldier to die. BUT that's my frustration and nothing to do with the fact that he and thousands of others are remembered which is the main thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 11 June , 2008 Share Posted 11 June , 2008 what information do you have regarding your maternal grandmothers family... you said surname is Jenkins, do you have any first names, her mother, father, brothers or even hers? Mick This may be a challenge a few on here will be up for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 11 June , 2008 Share Posted 11 June , 2008 As regards Condon, the illustrious Forum member Aurel Sercu did great detective work but found that his discoveries were borrowed by some and not welcomed by others. I think he still carries the mental scars. Laying bare Great war myths is a dangerous occupation. Moston - good luck with your teenager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moston Posted 12 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2008 what information do you have regarding your maternal grandmothers family... you said surname is Jenkins, do you have any first names, her mother, father, brothers or even hers? Mick This may be a challenge a few on here will be up for. Here goes..... Allen Jenkins (born nr Ledbury 1859) married Alice Jane Jones (born Crickhowel 1866). They had 6 Children. Alice Jenkins, Elizabeth (?), Mabel (My Grandma born in Barry, S Wales), Clifford (died in old age), Ernest (Flu) and William (born in 1904 - died WW1...but I can't prove it) In 1907 Alice Jenkins died - the inquest was reported in the Wolverhampton Evening Star, 3 weeks later Allen died - his inquest was in the same paper. The 6 Orphans were left. The 3 girls (including my Grandma) were rehomed with friends of the family in Wolverhampton. The 3 boys were placed in the Wolverhampton Cottage Homes (orphanage). That's all I know. My Grandma often used to clam up about WW1 - her 'brother having been killed' (can only be William unless Ernest Jenkins didn't die of flu in 1919? Her fiancee was killed in the Battle of Jutland. Her later Husband Ernset Byard served in RFA - but they didn't meet till after the war. (I've done this off the top of my head with all my research notes buried away in the loft as I moved house recently!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baorbrat Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 The CWGC site has the following listed. Could he be Ernest? JENKINS Initials: E Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Master Gunner 3rd Class Regiment/Service: Royal Garrison Artillery Unit Text: No.20 Fire Command Date of Death: 07/07/1919 Service No: 12601 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: 19. "C". 67. Cemetery: NEWPORT (ST. WOOLOS) CEMETERY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moston Posted 12 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2008 The CWGC site has the following listed. Could he be Ernest? JENKINS Initials: E Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Master Gunner 3rd Class Regiment/Service: Royal Garrison Artillery Unit Text: No.20 Fire Command Date of Death: 07/07/1919 Service No: 12601 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: 19. "C". 67. Cemetery: NEWPORT (ST. WOOLOS) CEMETERY Could be !?! shame it has no next of kin info to prove/exclude him. Thanks for helping everyone ! I recall spending hours at the Family Records Centre in Islington going through deaths of Jenkins to see if I could spot Ernest or William based in Wolverhampton/Walsall etc of the right age in 1919....I couldn't. Ernset may well have died of Flu whilst still serving in the forces hence his name wouldn't appear in the usual death register. Just wish I could chat with my Grandma about it !?! Mind you that search should be a lot easier thanks to Ancestry.com - anyone got access? 1901 Census the family were together (except for William who hadn't been born!) Pure tongue in cheek I've contacted the BBC programme 'Who Do You Think You Are' to see if they'd be interested in the story/idea. (bearing in mind it's potential national interest...or not as the case may be ! - don't ask you don't get). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 moston, good luck with your searching. its a bit weird that 'the name 'jenkins' lane' appears on pte condons birth cert!! cheers, mike. ...perth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I've been thinking about this and I think it's rather unlikely that your relative was killed while serving in the Great War. Family history says that this young man died in the war. There must have been lots of 14 year olds who "died in the war" just as there must have been thousands of young men and women who "got married in the war" and tens of thousands of babies who were "born in the war". "Died in the war" doesn't mean the same as "killed in the war while serving in the armed forces". By 1918 conscription was in place, with young men being warned to report for attestation by means of a letter sent to them at their home address, just before their 18th birthday (later dropped to 17). There was no need to call up boys younger than that, because the scheme also included older men anyway. The scheme worked by calling up single men, youngest first, and then married men. So william would not have been called up at all because of his age, so he must have enlisted, and he must have enlisted in 1917 or 1916. To voluntarily enlist in 1917 or 1916 William would have had to persuade an official that he was 18, while actually being 12 or 13 (if he enlisted in 1917) or 11 or 12 (if he enlisted in 1916). Enlisting in 1915 would be out of the question. As an 11, 12 or 13-year-old he would have had to meet the height requirement set for grown men, and his weight and chest expansion would have had to meet the requirements of grown men. He would have needed to get through training keeping up with grown men, and pass further (and more searching) medical appraisals without anyone noticing his youth and lack of physical development. If he had served in the South Staffordshire Regiment, his companions would have been men used to hard physical labour. They would have just left him standing. It just seems unlikely to me. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moston Posted 12 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2008 Thanks for this - you're not a wet blanket at all - I'm only interested in the truth. Naturally I have considered all this and agree it sounds totally unlikely - BUT, I clearly recall my Grandma (who had her marbles intact) getting choked about her brother being killed in the war (in action). She used to become so upset she would never talk about it to any of her family. It was only upon her death that we discovered the Coroner's report from 1907 about her parents death (newspaper cut out)which made her and her siblings orphans. Her own children never knew. It's that fact that's pushing me despite it sounding unlikely. Still bugs me though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susanhemmings Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 1901 census shows: Allen 41 Alice 35 and three children: Mabel aged 7 Clifford aged 3 Ernest aged 1 All living 297 Wednesbury Road, Walsall, Staffs. Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susanhemmings Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 Could this be your great uncle William. Perhaps he was the one that died of the flu and Ernest was the soldier. Ernest seems to have been born approx 1900 (from 1901 census) William Jenkins Estimated Birth Year: abt 1904 Year of Registration: 1918 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep Age at Death: 14 District: Wolverhampton County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands Volume: 6b Page: 625 (click to see others on page) (maybe worth getting the death certificate - reference above - to confirm?) Will have a further look round for you. Susan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moston Posted 12 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2008 Thank you so very much - it certainly looks like him - my search at FRC Islington was obvioulsy flawed. So Ernest Jenkins it is then - he would still have been under 19 - but not the youngest killed in the war by a long way. Very many thanks to all of you for your input and advice. Now I have the uneviable task of discovering which of the E Jenkins killed in WW1 he is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susanhemmings Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 You could always try the Cottage Home for the records. They are apparently closed for 100 years, but you may be able to receive info as both your great uncles are now deceased. Link below: click here Meanwhile, will keep scouting around for you. But I would definitely get the death certificate for William Jenkins (if you believe this to be your great uncle). At least that way you will be able to tell if this youngster died of flu..... Susan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moston Posted 12 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2008 Thanks again Susan. I have got a friend onto ordering the death cert for me. Last time I tried Cottage Homes it was before the 100 year rule was up...I had forgtotten that this has now passed. I truly value your help in all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 Soldiers Died only has nine Ernest's. This is the only one with a likely geographical connection - but nowt else appears to fit: http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=592120 J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moston Posted 12 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2008 Soldiers Died only has nine Ernest's. This is the only one with a likely geographical connection - but nowt else appears to fit: http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=592120 J Thanks ! I've gone through CWGC using 'E Jenkins' and got 80 records - went through each one and crossed out those it could not have been (first name not Ernest or next of kin info wrong) and end up with just 14 records for a possible match. The chap you quote has wrong parent details - should be the late Allen & Alice Jenkins. I will sit down with SDGW and go through all 14 'E Jenkins' now I have their dates of death and Regts to see if I can eliminate a few more names off my list. E Jenkins date of death 9/10/18. Regt 1st Dragoons E Jenkins d.o.d. 7/8/18 Mech Transport E Jenkins d.o.d. 23/8/15 Duke of Wellingtons Ernest Jenkins d.o.d. 2/9/18. Essex Regt E Jenkins d.o.d. 21/4/16. R Eng E Jenkins d.o.d. 8/8/18 R Fus E Jenkins d.o.d. 7/7/19 RGA E Jenkins d.o.d. 6/11/18 R Welsh Fus E Jenkins d.o.d. 3/5/17 Somerset LI E Jenkins d.o.d. 20/10/17. Welsh Regt E Jenkins d.o.d. 19/11/17 West African E G Jenkins d.o.d. 28/10/18. Royal Navy E J Jenkins d.o.d. 11/7/16 Welsh Regt E.L Jenkins d.o.d. 24/11/18 RFA If any of these prove to be not 'Ernest' then I can cross them off for starters. As for born - Walsall or Wolverhampton - enlisted/resided - I think I may be hoping for too much to see 'Wolverhampton' !? I am SO determined to get my Gt Uncle remembered by the family who have been blissfully ignorant for 90 years. My Mum, (his neice!) has just come out from hospital having had major surgery so it'd be lovely to pass on progress to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susanhemmings Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 Moston, Were "the girls" alice and elizabeth born after William (1904). If they were born before where were they in 1901. Perhaps with grandparents in Wales? Did a quick check on Wales census but nothing obvious. Let me know if I can help with any of this for you. Have access to a few websites - have looked for Ernest in deaths 1915-1919 - nothing. Maybe it was him that was the soldier. Nothing apparent in "pension" bits on Ancestry. Fingers crossed when some more "service" records are updated..... Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susanhemmings Posted 12 June , 2008 Share Posted 12 June , 2008 Here are the references for your gr grandparents deaths. note Allen is mentioned as being born in 1889 - the age of 18 give is a typo error. If you look at the image it clearly says 48.... so I think this is your Allen. Alice Jane Jenkins abt 1867 1907 Jul-Aug-Sep Wolverhampton Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands View Record Allen Jenkins abt 1889 1907 Oct-Nov-Dec Wolverhampton Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands Alice Jane Jenkins Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867 Year of Registration: 1907 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep Age at Death: 40 District: Wolverhampton County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands Volume: 6b Page: 283 Allen Jenkins Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889 THIS SHOULD READ 1859 Year of Registration: 1907 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec Age at Death: 18 THIS SHOULD READ 48 District: Wolverhampton County: Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands Volume: 6b Page: 337 There was no facility to correct this typo mistake.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moston Posted 12 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2008 I think the 'Jones' (John & Ann(?)) grandparents died long before 1901 Census - the Jenkins grandparents (if still alive then?) would have been in Wellington Heath, Ledbury.(Thomas & Emma). Alice was born in 1905, Elizabeth - I can't recall off the top of my head! As you say....Just hope the service records survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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