Russellwoodward Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 Dear All I hope you can help me I am enquiring about the RNVR action at the Battle of Ancre on the 13th November 1916 I have a relative who died on this day - Eric Charles Dunnicliffe - Able Seaman RNVR, London Z 1203 Does anyone know what happened to the Battallion on this day and possibly what happened to Eric Any help would be appreciated Regards Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 I would interested to know more of this man because he is not commemorated by the CWGC, nor does he appear on the Royal Naval Division Roll of Honour. Where did you obtain details of his death? Hawke Battalion were in the first wave of battalions attacking Beaucourt and were followed closely by Nelson Battalion. They both took terrible casualties from a concealed German machine gun redoubt. Now found him - only one N in his name. Dunicliffe. Missing, later reported KIA. Formerly served 2 years Officers Training Corps Denstone College ; ex-Public Schools Bn. (PSB/270), enlisted 4/1/15 ; Hawke Bn. D/216 9/3/15-21/8/15 Jaundice, Invalided to UK 24/12/15 ; Draft for BEF 10/7/16, joined Hawke Bn. 28/8/16-13/11/16 DD. Pay book taken off his dead body in a trench & returned by Drake Bn. ; A Schoolboy ; b.19/1/1897 ; Next-of-Kin & home address: Father, Thomas F., Mayfields, Tutbury, Nr. Burton-on-Trent, later of: 13 High St., Burton-on-Trent. ; ADM/171 = St.V.B. issued to Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 63rd Div as part of V Corps attacked along Station Trench to Station Road (to the right of Beaumont Hamel) and took Beaucourt. The Howe Battalion mopped up in Station Road after the other two Naval battalions. I cannot find him on the GRO death indexes for the Navy. - Found him - Dunicliffe Eric C AB Hawke Bn, RND, 1916. ref RN 1148stevem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 The Howe Battalion mopped up in Station Road after the other two Naval battalions. Not correct. Howe Battalion was in the van of the assault by 188 Bde on the left of the RND. They were followed by Anson Bn. these two battalions then leapfrogging each other in turn (in theory). They both also ran foul of the German redoubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connaughtranger Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 Hi If Eric Dunnicliffe was in Hawke then he will have been part of a Battalion that was all but annihilated. They went into action with 20 Officers and 415 OR's. Their official casualties were 23 Officers and 396 OR's! Douglas Jerrold claims that nearly all the casualties occurred during the 10 minute period when the attack was visible to the CO and his HQ staff. The enemy redoubt was directly opposite that portion of the line attacked by Hawke and unmolested machine-guns did their work. Some men under Vere Harmsworth reached the second line before being cut down & 2 Officers and about 20 OR's from "C" & "D" Companies got through on the flank of the Hood Battalion. A few reached the Yellow Line in front of Beaucourt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 About 140 Hawkes k.i.a. or d.o.w. as a result of the battle for Beaucourt. About 135 for Nelson Battalion following immediately behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 quote: Does anyone know what happened to the Battallion on this day The Hawke were lucky enough to have the divisional historian as their adjutant Douglas Jerrold's histories (The Royal Naval Division and The Hawke Battalion) can both be had from the Naval & Military Press regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connaughtranger Posted 5 June , 2008 Share Posted 5 June , 2008 quote: Does anyone know what happened to the Battallion on this day The Hawke were lucky enough to have the divisional historian as their adjutant Douglas Jerrold's histories (The Royal Naval Division and The Hawke Battalion) can both be had from the Naval & Military Press regards Michael He also wrote of his experiences in Georgian Adventure; he recounts some interesting "meetings" with General Shute and the moment he lost his arm and was stupidly pleased to find it still hanging in his tunic, although upset at losing his revolver which he was holding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salfordian Posted 5 June , 2008 Share Posted 5 June , 2008 I stayed in Ancre last october whilst touring the Somme. I have pictures of the area and the RND Memorial - PM me if you are interested Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 5 June , 2008 Share Posted 5 June , 2008 quote: He also wrote of his experiences in Georgian Adventure; he recounts some interesting "meetings" with General Shute and the moment he lost his arm and was stupidly pleased to find it still hanging in his tunic, although upset at losing his revolver which he was holding 'Georgian Adventure': that's one I haven't got If I recollect correctly he tells of losing his arm in The Hawke Battalion but I'd love to hear about his 'meetings' with Shute Can you oblige Connaughtranger? Many thanks Michael post-script: Not wanting to distract from Russell's thread I've started another here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 5 June , 2008 Share Posted 5 June , 2008 Russell, as no one else has bothered to mention it: copies of his service cards can be downloaded at Kew for free or online for £3.50. Description Name Dunicliffe, Eric Charles Service Number(s): Z/1203 Rank or Rating: Ordinary Seaman, Able Seaman Date of Birth: 19 January 1897 Catalogue reference ADM 339/2 Dept Records of the Admiralty, Naval Forces, Royal Marines, Coastguard, and related bodies Series Admiralty and War Office: Royal Naval Division: Records of Service (Microfiche Copies) Piece Ratings/other ranks (discharged dead) http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...;resultcount=10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 5 June , 2008 Share Posted 5 June , 2008 It looks like he was 18 when he served in Gallipoli Name: DUNICLIFFE, ERIC CHARLES Rank: Able Seaman Regiment/Service: Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Unit Text: Hawke Bn. R.N. Div. Age: 19 Date of Death: 13/11/1916 Service No: London Z/1203 Additional information: Son of Thomas Fredric and Alice Maud Mary Dunicliffe, of Rolleston, Staffs. Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 1 A. Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russellwoodward Posted 5 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 5 June , 2008 Dear All Thank you all again for the speed and detail of your replies You have certainly filled in a few gaps that i had - it has surprised me the detail that has been obtained per ardua per mare per terram - do you know his role at Gallipoli - and any further details Horatio 2 - you have mentioned a public schoolboy battalion - do you have any further info on this Salfordian - Thanks for your offer - i will send a PM Many Thanks as always Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 5 June , 2008 Share Posted 5 June , 2008 Hawke Battalion did not arrive on Gallipoli until the end of May 1915 - five weeks after the original landings. He would have spent his time fighting Turks and/or being ill until he went down with jaundice and was invalided home. He was lucky not to be wounded. The RND Public Schools Battalion (a training outfit early in the war (??)- not a front-line unit) seems to have drawn its intake from the public schools and a fair number of officers were commissioned from it ranks. I believe it was based at the RND depot at Crystal Palace. I have not got much more - perhaps others do. After more research - It appears that in late 1914 the RND decided to form a Public Schools Battalion but it only ever reached company level. One report states that this company was 'D' Company of Hawke Battalion (Dunicliffe was Hawke 'D' Company) while that Battalion was reforming and training at Crystal Palace in late 1914/early 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connaughtranger Posted 6 June , 2008 Share Posted 6 June , 2008 quote: Does anyone know what happened to the Battallion on this day regards Michael Perhaps the only real picture of what happened to the Battalion that day was penned by A P Herbert, a War Poet who should be mentioned in the same breath as Sassoon and Owen and others I wandered up to Beaucourt; I took the river track, And saw the lines we lived in before the Boche went back; But peace was now in Pottage, the front was far ahead, The front had journeyed Eastward, and only left the dead. And I thought, How long we lay there, and watched across the wire, While the guns roared round the valley, and set the skies afire! But now there are homes in Hamel and tents in the Vale of Hell, And a camp at Suicide Corner where half a regiment fell. The new troops follow after, and tread the land we won, To them 'tis so much hillside re-wrested from the Hun; We only walk with reverence this sullen mile of mud; The shell holes hold our history, and half of them our blood. Here, at the head of Peche Street, 'twas death to show your face; To me it seemed like magic to linger in the place; For me how many spirits hung round the Kentish Caves, But the new men see no spirits - they only see the graves. I found the half-dug ditches we fashioned for the fight We lost a score of men there - young James was killed that night; I saw the star shells staring, I heard the bullets hail, But the new troops pass unheading - they never heard the tale. I crossed the blood red ribbon, that once was No Man's Land, I saw the misty daybreak and the creeping minute-hand; And here the lads went over, and there was Harmsworth shot, And here was William lying - but the new men know them not. And I said, "There is still the river, and still the stiff, stark trees; To treasure here our story, but there are only these"; But under the white wood crosses the dead men answered low, "The new men know not Beaucourt, but we are here - we know" September 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 7 June , 2008 Share Posted 7 June , 2008 My thanks to Martin for the above (and for the scans safely received) In his book (If you're alive speak, if dead don't bother) about his relative Jack Clegg, who was also lost in this battle, John Morcombe has listed the RND's killed at the Battle of the Ancre - see pages 228-240 At the time of writing John's researches had listed: 1st RM Battalion - 127 fatalities 2nd RM Battalion - 105 Howe Battalion - 119 Anson Battalion - 121 Hood Battalion - 83 Drake Battalion - 70 Hawke Battalion - 132 Nelson Battalion - 135 RM Div. Engineers - 13 RM Medical Unit - 22 188th Brigade TMB - 2 189th Brigade TMB - 4 190th Brigade TMB - 2 188th Brigade MG Co - 19 189 Brigade MG Co - 22 190th Brigade MG Co - 14 I regret that I do not have figures concerning the 190th Infantry Brigade [the 'Army' brigade within the 63rd (RN) Division] The best that I can do for the present is to quote from Jerrold's history of the RND "The two Naval Brigades had suffered the most severe losses. Of the officers and men of the 189th Brigade who went into the attack, there remained unwounded only Lieutenant Morrison, Sub-Lieutenants Hill, Arblaster, Carnall, Jacobs and Surgeon McCracken and 250 petty officers and men of the Hood Battalion, Lieutenant Sterndale Bennett and Sub-Lieutenants Fox and Beak and some 280 petty officers and men of the Drake Battalion, Sub-Lieutenant A. P. Herbert (who had come up to Beaucourt with Major Norris on the night of 13th-14th), Sub-Lieutenant Rackham and Sub-Lieutenant Bowerman and some 30 men of the Hawke Battalion, and Lieutenant Dangerfield, Sub-Lieutenant Gardner, Surgeon Cox and 100 men of the Nelson Battlaion. In the 188th Brigade the losses were equally severe, though the four commanding officers survived to lead out the remains of their battalions. With Commander Ramsay Fairfax there came back of the Howe Battalion only Sub-Lieutenant Forrester and less than 100 men. Of the Anson the survivors were Lt.-Commander Ellis and 166 petty officers and men without officers (and 80 reinforcements who had arrived late on the 14th). The 1st R.M. Battalion, under Colonel Cartwright, came out with one officer (Lieutenant Van Praagh, RM) and 138 NCOs and men, and the 2nd R.M. Battalion, under Colonel Hutchinson, with six officers and nearly 150 men. The 190th Brigade had suffered only less severely." If anyone can add more details regarding the 190th Brigade's losses at the Ancre, then please do so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Morcombe Posted 7 June , 2008 Share Posted 7 June , 2008 Michael, them RND casualty figures are a little out of date. Not by much, but since amended for the online RND Dbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 8 June , 2008 Share Posted 8 June , 2008 quote: If anyone can add more details regarding the 190th Brigade's losses at the Ancre, then please do so the following details are to be found in Len Sellers' magazine 'RND' issue No.2, September 1997, see pages 108> where there is reprinted 'The Royal Naval Division On the Ancre, 1916' a paper first given at Sandhurst by Captain Christopher Page RN the former Head of Defence Studies at the Ministry of Defence. On pages 122/3 Captain Page gives 'The Gains and the Cost' of the Battle of the Ancre Captain Page's quotes from Ludendorff who described the defeat as "A particularly heavy blow, for we considered such an event no longer possible, particularly in sectors where our troops held good positions." And then Page goes on to say "The Naval Division had, however, paid a grievous price for their achievement..." After describing the Naval Brigades losses he concludes this section of his article with "The losses of the 190th Brigade were almost as heavy: For instance, The Honourable Artillery Company suffered 265 killed and wounded, and the 7th Royal Fusiliers had over 350 killed, wounded or missing, some of whom turned up later. The 4th Bedfordshires casualties totalled 180, and the Royal Dublin Fusiliers had 92 killed, and about twice that number wounded....." regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russellwoodward Posted 10 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 10 June , 2008 Dear All Thank you again for the information which has certainly given me a better understanding of the Slaughter that took place It certainly has detailed the overall situation regarding Eric Charles Dunicliff (also spelt Dunnicliff) Thanks to all once again regarding this Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14kvn Posted 8 July , 2008 Share Posted 8 July , 2008 Hi Russell I cannot add anything about your relative but I have some first hand thoughts about that day. I have a three page collection of quote " Memories, Facts and Thoughts " under the Heading " The Battle of Ancre , November 13 , 1916 written by my Grandfather who was there with The Machine Gun Corps and was formally of the 1St Cambridgeshire Regiment. He recalls Haig saying " now my lads lets get at them and give them some more" " The weather was against us but we knew it had got to be done so early one foggy morning our thousand unit went over like one They thought we were demons out of the mist as into their trenches we poured and they knew it would be no use to resist so once again the Terriers poured." He talks about a counter attack that was easily brushed aside and then: " Over the ridge and down the hills we swept them clean away with the Naval division on our left it was a Grand Advance that day " There seems to have been a bit of controversy about who got credit for the success. He mentions also The Black Watch, The Herts, The Cheshires as well as the Machine Gun Corps and The Cambridgeshire's. " Now I don't know nor can I see why one division should Praised be We all done our bit so give us our share of the praising words that's all we care . Praise our Grand Sailors upon the sea our Airmen too and the M G C Praise the new army but bless the old and don't forget the Terriers bold." Signed Gunner J. H. Gent - Machine Gun Corps late of 1/1st. Cambridgeshires He was on The Western Front from February 14 1915 until July 31 1917 when he was badly injured and returned to Addenbrookes Hospital, Cambridge and in 1918 received a disabled honourable discharge signed by the King. His brother Jim was KIA - NKG in May 1917 at Cherisy near Arras and is commemorated at The Arras memorial. Hope that's of some interest to you. Regards Kevin Kennedy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maj HL Newton Posted 9 May , 2014 Share Posted 9 May , 2014 He's mentioned in the Tutbury Book of Rememberence http://tutbury-book-of-remembrance.org.uk/Tutbury%20Book%20of%20Remembrance%20-%201st%20Edition.pdf Able Seaman Eric Charles DUNICLIFFE Hawke Bn, RN Div, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve (Service No London Z/1203) Killed in action on 13th November 1916, aged 19 Commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial, France Eric Charles Dunicliffe was born in Stapenhill on 19th January 1897. He was the son of Thomas Frederic Dunicliffe, a Burton upon Trent solicitor and his wife Alice Maud Mary. The family lived at 100 Shobnall Road, Burton on Trent. By 1911 Eric was sent as a boarder to a Preparatory School in Market Bosworth, run by Lewis Henry Pearson, a clergyman and schoolmaster. At home, at "Mayfields", Tutbury, Eric now had a younger brother Raymond Hugh, born about 1906. There was also a cook and a housemaid. After this Eric went to Denstone College, Uttoxeter, until he answered the call to arms. Whilst there, he had two years’ training with the Officers’ Training Corps. He was very anxious to join up as soon as possible. It may be that, like so many others, despite having been in the OTC, his commission took too long in arriving. In January 1915, he enlisted in the Public Schools’ Battalion of the Royal Naval Division. He was posted to the Hawke Battalion. (Long before the war it had been realised by the Royal Navy that, enormous it might be, it still had too many reservists for the number of sailing vessels it would have available in time of war. The idea was put forward that units could be trained as infantry to fight for ports or naval installations and then to defend these. Thus a Royal Naval Division was created.) He went to Gallipoli in May 1915 and served through the campaign, being stationed at Cape Helles. He was invalided home at Christmas, suffering from jaundice. After 3 months’ leave he rejoined and was sent to France in July 1916. (After the Dardanelles campaign, it was decided to incorporate the Royal Naval Division into the Army and in May 1916 the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division arrived in Marseilles.) Eric was reported to be missing since the battle on 13th November 1916 when the division so gallantly distinguished itself at Beaucourt. This was conveyed to the family in December 1916, but not officially confirmed until later in the month by a letter received from Eric’s platoon officer. The letter states: "I deeply regret to have to inform you that your son was killed in action on 13th November. He was always a most willing and conscientious fellow. I am sure you and Mrs Dunicliffe will find comfort when you remember that he obeyed and did his duty – a better thing than this no man can do.” In December 1918, a Solemn Requiem was sung at Denstone College for those members of the school who had given their lives in the war, including Eric. Sadly Eric's body was never recovered. He is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial and also on the War Memorial at St Mary’s Church, Rolleston on Dove, Staffs. --- My great great uncle William Trafford Newton, also from Tutbury, was injured at the battle of Loos October 1915 and like Eric was invalided back to England and also spent Christmas 1915 in Tutbury, presumably would have know Eric Dunicliffe, as just a year older. He returned to France June 1916, dying on first day of the Somme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massie Posted 9 June , 2014 Share Posted 9 June , 2014 The 7th Royal Fusiliers were part of 190th brigade - their diary has the following: The 'Place' is recorded as Hamel. 12th Nov - Y day. The day ‘fully occupied in drawing war stores & issuing same‘. Bttn marched to Engelbelmer woth platoons at 200 yard intervals. The night was moonlight & not very cold. The Bttn proceeded to the assembly point with 22 officers & 629 ORs. Hot tea was brought up in cookers to Hamel & issued at 11pm. Z day was Nov 13th. From the report Appendix - times start in am. Hot soup & rum were issued at 5.00am. Great coats were taken off & stacked in section bundles at 5am. 5.45 Barrage commenced, the Bttn moved up into the 1st & 2nd line trenches 6.25 the Bttn advanced on the German 1st line 7.15 confusion in No mans land owing to fog 7.20 OC Right Co personally reported seriously wounded and exhausted that he had entered 1st line German trench with men of his own Co and men collected in No mans Land, that the trench was strongly held by the enemy and 'great confusion appeared to prevail' and a counter attack appeared probable 7.40 Report from Lieut Fish said his Co had reached 1st objective & he was wounded in foot, Adj Capt Ford went to investigate & found situation satisfactory & 2 centre Co.s under Capts Forster & Clarke consolidating in German 1st line 8.50 OCs right & left Co’s reported they were holding the German 1st line with about 150 men, the enemy holding the trench on their left 9.30 Brigade orders Bttn to push forward & occupy trench on extreme right & then spread NW 10.30 Capt Forster reported capture of 1 officer 50 men & 1 machine gun, & requested stretcher bearers & Lewis gun ammo & bombs 11.40 detail party under Sergt Bright ordered to hold enemy’s strong point while remainder of Capt Forster’s party went on with him to Green Line 12.30 4 officer reinforcements arrive 2.00 (pm) 2nd Lieut Downing arrived Bd HQ (Capt having being killed with undispatched report timed 9am) & reported left Co held up with heavy casualties after 3 attempts to enter 1st German trench & remainder, about 25 strong, were occupying shellholes in front of the German 1st line wire. He was instructed to withdraw them at 1st opportunity. 2.30 subaltern officer dispatched to collect stragglers of various units & Lewis guns in our 1st line trench, and to hold trench. At the same time Capt Goddard sent to take over from Sergt Bright, taking carrying party with bombs with him. 4.20 request from Capt Goddard for Very pistols & lights, bombs & ammo for Lewis guns, request time 3.35pm 5.00 2nd Lieut Downing reported he had withdrawn his men without casualties & left them under Lieut Randall in our 1st line trench. 2nd Lieut Brown ordered to reorganise the 25 men & proceed to reinforce Capt Goddard against the German strong point 7.20 Capt Forster directed to withdraw from the Green Line & rejoin Capt Goddard with view to taking enemy strong point that night, and it was suggested that the best way to achieve this appeared to be bombing towards it from original 1st & 2nd German lines 9.37 report received from Capt Forster timed 3.37pm reporting his arrival at Green Line 10.00pm order regarding taking enemy strong point cancelled as Bttn moving forwards Nov 14th 2.00am Lieut Randall ordered to withdraw Lewis gunners & men to Divisional Advanced Dump, also Capts Goddard & Forster. On arrival at dump they drew bombs, ammo, water & rations & reorganised Bttn 5.30 Bttn formed in 2 waves in support behind right Co HAC 6.00 attack opened & Capt Goddard reported they had taken Red Line with little opposition mostly from enemy machine guns on the left. Large number of German prisoners taken. He then consolidated the right flank to the river bank NE of Beaucourt 7.15pm Brigade order stated Bttn would be withdrawn at 4am Nov 15th & occupy the original 1st & 2nd line trenches, which was achieved. They then went to shelters on the 16th on the Engelbelmer-Martinsart road. The Bttn had to wait until dark before the shelters were pitched. The 17th was spent clearing the battlefield. The 18th they went to billets in Beauval, and the first draft of 47 OR arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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