Sergeant or Serjeant

[Guest KevinEndon]

Hunted high and low to find out when and why serjeant became sergeant but to no avail. Can you help please? I would love to know when the J was dropped for a G.

Kevin

[sotonmate]

Kevin

The Oxford English Dictionary says that the original word was Sergeant and that the spelling Serjeant was a variant of that used in some areas. One could expect it's spelling to be based on the phonetic sound of the word.

Sotonmate

[chaz]

interesting puzzle question..

Im looking through some old autograph book pages, only around half dozen and trying to pin down names to MIC if possible to see if any come up.

On one in particular I have a sergeant F J Grew of the 17th Signal Coy R.E (Motor Despatch Riders) Spring 1915. On it he signs (Sergeant) on his MIC it shows Grew F.J. Serjeant 54159 Royal Engineers.

there is also a Sgt A Meadows Kings Liverpool Regt whose MIC lists as

Medal card of Meadows, A

Corps Regiment No Rank

Liverpool Regiment Serjeant

Machine Gun Corps Lieutenant

in March 1915 he wrote with Sgt A Meadows

[auchonvillerssomme]

Interchangeable without any obvious reason

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=*

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=*

Plus MIC that has both...

Description Medal card of Finch, Frank

Corps Regiment No Rank

Gloucestershire Regiment 392 TF Serjeant

1/5th Gloucestershire Regiment 240017 Company [sergeant] Serjeant Major

2nd Gloucestershire Regiment 56209 Company [sergeant] Serjeant Major

Gloucestershire Regiment 56209 Company [sergeant] Serjeant Major

Mick

[alliekiwi]

In a non-military sense, it seems there are some instances of the G being dropped in favour of the J!

E.g. regarding the NZ Parliament (from nzhistory.net.nz):

Serjeant-at-Arms

The Serjeant-at-Arms (or Sergeant-at-Arms, until the 1950s) carries the mace or the symbol of the Speaker's authority, for the official opening of Parliament, and also at the opening of every sitting when she or he leads the Speaker into the House and announces the Speaker's presence.

And the same spelling is used in the House of Commons in the UK, although I don't know if it changed as it did in NZ. From the BBC

Serjeant at Arms

The Serjeant at Arms is an important official of the House of Commons who is responsible for maintaining law and order in and around the Commons, and also performs some administrative duties

Same spelling for same job used in Singapore.

Allie

[michaeldr]

interesting article here on origins

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/SCY_SHA/SERJEANT.html

[Trebrys]

And what about the English pronunciation of 'lieutenant'? Where does the 'f' sound come from..............and why doesn't 'colonel' have its 'l' emphasised as in German?

And why oh why do some people insist on spelling Welsh as 'Welch'?

Isn't language great!!!

[Terry Denham]

I can tell you what the CWGC convention is.

CWGC has been instructed by the MoD & NZ authorities to use the 'J' spelling for 'Serjeant' in all UK and New Zealand ranks up to November 1953.

The same rank in the other dominion forces is to be spelt with a 'G'.

[alliekiwi]

And what about the English pronunciation of 'lieutenant'? Where does the 'f' sound come from..............and why doesn't 'colonel' have its 'l' emphasised as in German?

An explanation of the word Colonel is here, whilst here is the explanation (somewhat) of Lieutenant.

I thought 'Welch' was the archaic/older form of Welsh...

Allie

[Muerrisch]

Welch/Welsh .......... a muddle. As far as the RWF were concerned, both came and went but the regiment always used the 'c' version internally.

Officially 's' in the Great War though.

Headstones have a mixture, even in the same cemetery.

[Terry Denham]

The CWGC instruction from MoD re 'Welsh/Welch' is to use the 's' version until the end of February 1920 and the 'c' version thereafter.

Headstones do not always agree with this but are being brought into line as replacements are erected - hence differences can be found.

[dycer]

Don't you love the Army/MOD?.Tell the CWGC one thing and do the opposite e.g. my Uncle is recorded as a Sjt. by the CWGC but his Victory and War Medal Roll record him as a Sgt.

Not sure that helps Kev.

George

[Terry Denham]

The MoD instruction is a relatively new decision and not contemprary with the war and its immediate aftermath.

[squirrel]

It is a great British tradition to take words from other languages and misuse and mispronounce them.

For instance, with regard to the battle, you may well not find the name Blenheim on a foreign map but you will find Blindhelm. Blenheim is the British version.

[Ali Hollington]

It might have changed more recently but Serjeant was still being used as the correct spelling wihtin the Light Infantry in the mid 1990's.

Regards

Ali

[Muerrisch]

The CWGC instruction from MoD re 'Welsh/Welch' is to use the 's' version until the end of February 1920 and the 'c' version thereafter.

Headstones do not always agree with this but are being brought into line as replacements are erected - hence differences can be found.

Which, of course, fails to explain all the 'c' versions .... there was a moment of retrospection [panic?] in the the 1980s when CWGC realised that all the 'c' versions were, technically, in error.

[Terry Denham]

On the contrary. It explains it entirely!

Immediately post-war when the military were giving CWGC instruction as to nomenclature and badges for headstones, they almost all opted for their then current title/badge. As you know many units had subtle changes of name at the end of the war or just after.

No heed was paid to historical accuracy. The regiments were too keen on establishing and broadcasting their new (and often hard won) names - the addition of 'Royal' etc. The classic case is the use of RAF badges for all RFC men - the RAF keen to assert its existance as a separate force. This also meant that the letter 'c' was used for 'Welch'. Such things being anachronisms were not considerations at the time and were not 'errors' as such.

It was only much later (probably to try and settle controversy) that a ruling was formulated about the use of 's' and 'c'. Those headstones which were allocated a 'c' at the time according to military instruction are now being given an 's' when replaced in accordance with the revised instruction - as are RFC stones replacing RAF versions etc.

[Muerrisch]

Of course, you know that I know the facts .... I had a long correspondence with CWGC in the early 1990s.

I thought the CWGC was a Commonwealth organisation, so how comes it takes direction from MoD?

I might add that the RWF don't give a stuff on the matter!

[Terry Denham]

It takes direction from MoD on all matters relating to the United Kingdom military. All units mentioned are United Kingdom units.

It takes direction on dominion units from the appropriate authorities in those countries.

[Muerrisch]

Thank you Terry.

Will wind neck in!

[Nigel Marshall]

Hi,

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but can anyone tell me when SerJeant became SerGeant, and why was the change made?

Was it a lean step from one to the other or was there a period, long or short when both were used side by side?

Cheers,

Nigel

[Ken Lees]

This has been discussed before, so a search of the forum archives might produce the discussion, but basically, the two were interchangeable throughout the Great War.

Ken

[Nigel Marshall]

Cheers Ken,

Isn't it always the way?

I searhed before and was bowled over by the number of returns, but a bit of jiggery - pockery and hey presto, I found the right thread!

It's got the info there, but it soon went off the rails talking about Household Cavalry ranks! that's another world entirely!

Thanks again.

Nigel

[Muerrisch]

OK, this is obvious: if you want to know about Household Cavalry ranks, punch in 'serjeant'!

[alliekiwi]

Don't you more often get Serjeant in the NZEF as well? I vaguely recall reading something along those lines, but can't remember the particulars.

Allie