Winter warfare: techniques, tactics, equipment

[John Gilinsky]

What specific progress did the BEF and other Allied armies make in adapting to winter warfare or winter condiitions?

Has anyone every written a book in English on winter warfare for the Great War?

Did the BEF ever have SKI troops?

John

Toronto (snowed under right now! )

[IanA]

Camouflage.

[centurion]

As far as I can see the BEF didn't operate in any mountainous areas so that ski troops would have been superflous. Had the facility been needed one assumes that the Canadians could have met this need as the Canadian army had been operating troops on ski and snow shoe since the 19th century. I believe the French did have ski troops operating in the Voges and the Italians also had troops equiped for operating in snow and ice at high altitude. British and US troops in North Russia did have some snow based capacity (I have found a photo of a US sledge convoy) but the details I don't know. The Russians must have had snow capabilities but again I have no details. The Turks operating against the Russians certainly had ski troops (there is photographic evidence) so its fair to assume there was some opposition.

US sledge convoy enclosed

[MartH]

John

I''m a bit bemused about this question.

What you actually asking, are you suggesting that the Allied Army had never fought in winter conditions before 1914? There is quite a lot in the "standard literature" on the subject coping with the climate.

Are you asking if the Allied forces tried to use ski troops on the Western Front?

Both British and French troops had gone through the Crimea War in pretty appalling conditions, and if you search on the Forum you will get references to troops in the GW being issued with kit from the Crimea. I am not aware of any ski troops on the Western Front, there were certainly mountain troops used by the Italians and French in the mountainous regions, who where specialists in winter warfare.

Ski troops where used in Northern Russia, and the US is currently writing an OH on this subject, there is a very good thin booklet from Leavenworth covering fighting in 1919, 1940 and 1944 in winter conditions, and the lessons learnt, do you want the full reference.

One of the biggest problems was treating wounds in cold temperatures, and Volume 4 of the Medical British OH goes into some depth on this subject, with some really good photos on the subject.

As for specific books, you will have to google for books on the Russian Intervention, better than me typing here.

Regards

Mart

Compton about to get snow!

[centurion]

One winter problem on all fronts (other than Mespot and Pelestine) was the freezing of the water in water colled mg's overnight (even with glycene added). The Germans were the biggest suffrer as being the army with the gratest proportion of water cooled guns whereas Birtish Lewis and French Hotchkis kept on being useable

[John Gilinsky]

BRRR: it is still snowing here in Toronto . I am specifically interested in finding out all the inventions, discoveries, adaptations, alterations and methods used first by the BEF, secondly by all other Allied armies when it came to conducting operations in winter conditions during the Great War.

I would like to compile a detailed table on this.

Please give me the full reference to the US Army booklet covering 1918-1919, 1940 and 1944.

Traditionally European armies up until Napoleon typically hibernated during the European winter.

How did the home front contribute to the winter effectiveness of the BEF? Presumably by knitting! Socks, gloves, mitts, balaclavas, scarves, sweaters, etc.....However what about rationing, self-denial, donations, fund-raising?

On the front lines: how did the BEF deal with hypothermia? Presumably extra rations of rum, coffee, cocoa?

Does anyone know of General Staff or senior level discussions specifically on winter conditions and how they would or did effect plans or actual military operations? I do NOT wish to extend into a disucssion here about how the General Staff did or did not know simply what factual evidence exists as to what was actually planned or being done to deal with adverse winter conditions.

BTW: Did anyone in the BEF presume that winter conditions with the excpetion of Russia 1918 - 1919 might actually HELP either in defense or offensive operations?

John (wrapping himself and putting hot soup on the stove)

Forgot to add to last post that I also do NOT wish to become entangled in MOUNTAIN warfare but generally how winter conditions effected entire armies.

John

[centurion]

Traditionally European armies up until Napoleon typically hibernated during the European winter.

and including Napoleon unless circustances FORCED otherwise. He wasn't planning to have an 1812 winter campaign. Otherwise apart from some oddities (such as cavalry charging across the ice to capture a fleet) everybody got a good book and a good brandy/whisky/calvados etc and settled in for the winter.

[MartH]

John

I can do much better the paper is Leavenworth Papers. You want No. 5, Fighting the Russians in Winter Three Case Studies, by Dr. Allen F.Chew. We might need to put this Leavenworth site in references...

Hypothermia is dealt with in the various medical OH's, the Australian and Canadian are online.

Mart

[Robert Dunlop]

There were several examples of Western Front actions in which British soldiers wore white coveralls to attack across snow. There were problems following any barrages incorporating HE as the splinters spread far more widely from very hard icy surfaces.

Robert

[Pete1052]

When I attended U.S. Army Arctic training in November 1982 at Fort Wainwright, Alaska, we were taught not to drink alcohol in cold areas because it decreases body temperature. When I think back on the situation now I think were getting training for possible fighting in Korea. Among other things we were taught how to build snow caves--inside a one-man cave with a candle burning the temperature is usually above 32 F, but outside it may be way below that, perhaps -30 F. We were taught much more--snowshoes, cross-country skis, etc. The main hazard in these kind of situations is a kind of psycholigical surrender to fate if a person decides he/she has had too much and decides to give up. In training courses to qualify for Airborne, British SAS, and U.S. Special Forces the issue of giving up is the main disqualifier--if you decide to quit, you're not good enough.

[SiegeGunner]

If I remember rightly, Sir Ernest Shackleton and one or more of his Antarctic explorer colleagues were sent to Russia to advise the expeditionary force on operating in extreme winter conditions.

[Michael Johnson]

A few thoughts.

Wool, even if wet, continues to insulate. A typical Tommy wore long underwear, wool shirt, wool trousers and jacket, and a wool greatcoat. I've worn the 1950s Canadian equivalent, and can tell you that although heavy as sin, the issue greatcoat is very warm.

The harder part was keeping feet dry.

[MartH]

In the Russian intervention 1918/19 the troops had access to Shackleton Boots which where not very good, the native felt boots where much better.

Mart

[Heid the Ba]

Let's not confuse ski troops with mountain troops. In military terms skis are a useful way of crossing terrain covered in snow rather than a way of quickly getting down a mountain. The UK has no tradition of crosscountry ski-ing and the BEF had no ski troops.

[Crunchy]

and including Napoleon unless circustances FORCED otherwise. He wasn't planning to have an 1812 winter campaign. Otherwise apart from some oddities (such as cavalry charging across the ice to capture a fleet) everybody got a good book and a good brandy/whisky/calvados etc and settled in for the winter.

Agreed but not always. Napoleon initiated the Eylau Campaign in the winter of 1806-07. Also Frederick William of Prussia, the Great Elector, initiated the The Great Sleigh Drive in the winter of 1678-79 which drove the Swedish out of East Prussia.

[MartH]

Just been looking at UK OH Medical 4 some 50 pages. It states that this was the first operation in the GW using the BEF in Arctic and extreme cold conditions, and so especially interesting, hence the 50 odd pages

Shackleton was appointed, director of equipment, winter clothing, rations and transport for the mobile columns. He made sure that a concentrated ration of high calorific value was available to the mobile columns.

There are photos of Italian ski troops, sledges, etc.

There is a copy of Hints and Precautions for Winter Camps and Sledging operations.

So to answer your original question it seems all the reference material on specific Winter Warfare is the Northern Russian Campaign body of books.

Mart

[michaeldr]

Mick and Mart have already mentioned the advice given by the explorer Shackleton

here are some further details from Blumberg's 'Britain's Sea Soldiers'

"On 17th December (1918) the Royal Marione Field Force from Murmansk was detailed to proceed to Kandalaksha, where the detachment from Kem was to join up and go into training to become a mobile column ......................Before leaving Murmansk each man was issued with and Arctic kit designed by Sir E. Shackleton consisting of

four sets of Wolseley underclothing

one Burberry suit

one large woolen lined overcoat

12 pairs of socks

one pair of Shackleton boots

one Arctic cap

special gloves

one pair of blizzard goggles

one pair of skis and sticks

one Westinghouse rifle made in the USA

The company also was equipped with small axes,

sleighs as used in the Shackleton expedition to Antarctic,

sleeping bags, Stockholm tar,

and specially prepared food. .........................................."

Blumberg also describes their training with skis and sticks, moving along in single file, turning on the move, turning together, firing from different positions including using the sticks as a bi-pod. The marines were also sent out to camp and "...lived like the Eskimo. The temperatures varied from 30 to 40 degrees below zero, but frostbites were comparatively few, and health was very good. Approximately 200 men trained and attained a high standard of proficiency."

Would anyone care to comment of the preference for the Westinghouse rifle?

regards

Michael

Edited 17 December , 2007 by michaeldr

[Pete1052]

The Westinghouse rifle was a U.S.-made Mosin-Nagant.

[MartH]

The Germans had ski troops in the Riga, anyone care of a scan?

Mart

[michaeldr]

Thanks Pete,

Looking around the web I see that plenty of them made their way to Russia at this time

so perhaps it was just a case of availability and a degree of uniformity

regards

Michael

[Pete1052]

The Westinghouses were made under contract to the Tsarist government but after the communists took over they stopped making payments--hence, deliveries of them stopped. There are a lot of them in the U.S.

Editorial Revision:

The Mosin-Nagant was the standard Russian military rifle during both world wars. Remington also made a lot of them under contract to the Russians during the Great War. Many of the Remingtons also stayed in the U.S. after the communists stopped paying their bills.

[John Gilinsky]

The Germans had ski troops in the Riga, anyone care of a scan?

Mart

YES definitely I would like a scan and I am sure several if not many others would probably as well!

John

[centurion]

Here are the Turkish ski troops

[NigelS]

I thought this might be of interest. The History of the London Rifle Brigade 1859-1919 relates this about when the L.R.B were at Ploegsteert in December 1914:

"The authorities provided goat-skin coats, worn with the hair outside, which was very warm but gave a most amusing appearance to the officers and the men. When going to the trenches the men loaded themselves with all sorts of articles likely to minimise the discomforts in view, and a photograph of a company before setting out would have been an entertaining memento, but, as the start was usually made at dusk, there was no opportunity for taking one."

Earlier in the same chapter it also reports the following:

"The authorities made arrangements for baths as soon as they could, and the men went into Armientieres where they bathed and were served with clean underclothing, their coats and trousers being ironed, especially about the seams, to eradicate any little strangers who might have taken up their habitation there."

I can't help wondering how many more "little strangers" would have taken up residence in what, at least to them, must have been the five star accommodation offered by goat-skin coats!

Michael Johnson wrote "The harder part was keeping feet dry." this recent topic

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=87038&hl=

which include the wartime enterprise of John Logie Baird, might also be of interest.

[John Gilinsky]

Here are the Turkish ski troops

Thanks: what is the original or contemporary source for this photo? Turkish illustrated newspaper?

John