Unknown Scottish soldier - Black Watch

[rgalley]

It seems to me that the attached photo is of a Black Watch soldier? I'm intrigued as to why there is no sling on his rifle and the fact that his kilt apron appears to be almost of a woollen texture. It's probably just a trick of the light.

I'm afraid I don't know who he is, or where the photo was taken.

Thoughts / comments from others always welcome

[4thGordons]

It seems to me that the attached photo is of a Black Watch soldier? I'm intrigued as to why there is no sling on his rifle and the fact that his kilt apron appears to be almost of a woollen texture. It's probably just a trick of the light.

I'm afraid I don't know who he is, or where the photo was taken.

Thoughts / comments from others always welcome

The rifle is interesting in itself, in particular the sling swivel forward of the magazine and no evidence of a sling swivel on the buttstock. It also does not look like there is a sling swivel on the barrel band (by his hand) where one would expect one. I do not think it is a SMLE No1 MkIII or variants thereof but is probably a MLE or CLLE. He appears to have the p1888 bayonet attached. It also looks like there is a magazine cuttoff(visible opposite the bolt handle) and long-range volley site (below hand) still in place.

The date of this is interesting too. Our man would appear to have short (cut?) cut puttees - as opposed to spats or long puttees which suggests a little later on, but the rifle and equipment suggests earlier. Is the belt a 1903 pattern or something else?

I would agree that the Kilt apron looks to me as though it is the same shade as his tunic, and quick skim of all my pictures indicates that they always show far lighter colours- I cannot on this picture make out texture but it looks very similar to his tunic...rather than the cotton of the standard apron.

Nice clear pic. Thanks for posting - I too want to hear what the experts have to say!

Chris

to me this mish mash of things would suggest a second line unit, or an ill-equipped Kitchener unit, but it is an intriguing photo.

[4thGordons]

Just thinking more about this - I think the rifle may well be a Lee Metford. Its the only one I can think of with this pattern of sling swivels.

Chris

[henryww1]

The rifle could be a MK1 Lee-Metford, adopted in 1888 and phased out in favour of the SMLE. I dont think its a Arisaka or Ross.

[BottsGreys]

The negative number would appear to indicate that the image was perhaps made by a professional photographer, as opposed to being a candid "snapshot." Based on his lack of other equipment, the rifle could therefore be a prop provided by the photographer. If so, it could be an obsolete model and be no true indicator of the arms/equipment actually issued to this fellow.

Chris

[Tom A McCluskey]

Piper,

I have looked at this photo a few times, so that I could maybe give the best possible, but speculative, point of view. Initially I would have said Royal Highlander or Glasgow Highlander, but I would be tempted to dismiss Glasgow Highlander for one simple reason, it took a long while for them to cut their puttees.

This plain style of leather belt is often seen on TF men, the absence of shoulder titles is not a problem as they are not often seen on Black Watch soldiers... in France anyway. The Black Watch cut their puttees fairly early on.

Weapon: the 4th and 5th initially had the Long Lee-Enfield. The Balmoral would be issued to TF men in the April of 1915 - that said, he may have went on leave wearing his Glengarry. The man in the photo is neat, tidy, and his uniform fits properly (belt is a bit ticht though). I would say that that is a trained TF man who has already been to the front. The 2nd and 3rd line were still wearing spats at this point.

Anyway, it is all open to interpretation, but hope this is some food for thought.

Aye

Tom McC

[rgalley]

Thanks for all the interesting feedback so far.

Looking at the glengarry badge again, could he be Scots Guards? Would Scots Guards on "ceremonial" duties be more likely to carry an obsolete rifle if supplies of SMLEs were bound for operational troops? Just a thought, so please pardon my lack of knowledge.

I'm also intrigued by the background / location ... it's got the look of railway station about it?

[Tom A McCluskey]

Piper,

The badge that he's wearing on the solid Glengarry is particular to the Black Watch & Glasgow Highlanders (9 HLI).

Hope this is of use

Aye

Tom McC

[tocemma]

Hello Piper,

Not a kilt apron but a nice example of a drab kilt. These were issued in 1914 as a cheaper alternative but were very unpopular with the Units they were issued to. Some CO's refused to accept them. It ties in with the rest of the kit he has- an odd mixture of semi obsolete kit.

Lovely image.

Regards

Tocemma

[rgalley]

Piper,

The badge that he's wearing on the solid Glengarry is particular to the Black Watch & Glasgow Highlanders (9 HLI).

Hope this is of use

Aye

Tom McC

Thanks Tom. Yes, of great use.

[Joe Sweeney]

Hello Piper,

Not a kilt apron but a nice example of a drab kilt. These were issued in 1914 as a cheaper alternative but were very unpopular with the Units they were issued to. Some CO's refused to accept them. It ties in with the rest of the kit he has- an odd mixture of semi obsolete kit.

Lovely image.

Regards

Tocemma

Tocemma,

Are you sure that's a Drab kilt? The appearance of the pocket would tend for me to say it's a Kilt Apron unless I'm not seeing a bit sticking out from behind?.

Joe Sweeney

[rgalley]

Hello Piper,

Not a kilt apron but a nice example of a drab kilt. These were issued in 1914 as a cheaper alternative but were very unpopular with the Units they were issued to. Some CO's refused to accept them. It ties in with the rest of the kit he has- an odd mixture of semi obsolete kit.

Lovely image.

Regards

Tocemma

Thanks for the steer on the drab kilt, T. Do we know how long drab kilts were in circulation for?

[Joe Sweeney]

I'm not 100% convinced that is a drab kilt. I've never handled an original so don't know if one of the versions had a pocket.

Attached is a photo of a drab kilt worn by a member of the 12th A&SH. Note no pocket soi at least one of the two had no pocket.

Drab Kilts were introduced in December 1914 and two different patterns ere introduced all were declared obsolete on 24 May 1921.

Actually in 1906 the Army wanted to introduce Drab Kilts for all Highlanders for wear with Service Dresss but this was rejected.

They were available through-out the war and in fact both clothing scales from France and Salonika from 1916 through 1918 specifically mention troops issued with Drab Kilts will not be issued Kilt Aprons.

Joe Sweeney

[tocemma]

Joe,

I'm pretty sure that its a drab kilt. I had one of these until quite recently and I have several studio photos showing drab kilts with pockets. The material is a lighter weight than standard tartan. The one I had, I think, had six pleats at the rear but was otherwise similar in construction to a standard kilt. Instead of two leather straps at the waist it had just one which was a tad wider than usual.

I will post the photos I have.

Tocemma

[Joe Sweeney]

Joe,

I'm pretty sure that its a drab kilt. I had one of these until quite recently and I have several studio photos showing drab kilts with pockets. The material is a lighter weight than standard tartan. The one I had, I think, had six pleats at the rear but was otherwise similar in construction to a standard kilt. Instead of two leather straps at the waist it had just one which was a tad wider than usual.

I will post the photos I have.

Tocemma

Tocemma,

Much appreciated as always

Joe

[rgalley]

Joe,

I'm pretty sure that its a drab kilt. I had one of these until quite recently and I have several studio photos showing drab kilts with pockets. The material is a lighter weight than standard tartan. The one I had, I think, had six pleats at the rear but was otherwise similar in construction to a standard kilt. Instead of two leather straps at the waist it had just one which was a tad wider than usual.

I will post the photos I have.

Tocemma

Tocemma,

Thanks for the input so far. Looking forward to seeing the photos. I presume the drab kilts were of Khaki colour?

[Ian Robertson]

I posted a picture of Thomas Wilkie of the 1st Bat of the Black Watch which was taken in Dundee. It shows him with a drab kilt and it was probably taken between the end of Jan1916 and the middle of April 1916.The picture can be seen at

 

[gnr.ktrha]

There is an example of this type of kilt in the Black Watch Museum, in Perth. According to the information with it, it was issued to the 10th Battalion, and the whole battalion was issued with them. I will try and get a photo next time I am in the Museum.

[tocemma]

Hello all,

Please see my posts re the drab kilt on the uniforms and equipment section of the forum. Ian's photo shows a cotton kilt APRON and not a drab kilt. I have posted some pics of the cotton apron. The drab kilt was made from khaki wool similar in weight to standard tartan. (note that tartan is the cloth, not the pattern)

Regards

Tocemma

There are some interesting posts re the khaki kilt.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Stewart,

Ref, the 10th BW, That would be good.

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Stewart,

Again a good pointer, the good old (much overlooked) 10th BW, from Wauchope, Volume III, page 206:

Christmas and New Year arrived, and the latter was celebrated by a Brigade inspection and march past on one of the wettest days of the whole winter. Shortly afterwards four days' leave with free passes to Scotland was granted to all ranks, a concession which was greatly appreciated. By this time temporary uniforms, in some cases rather suggestive of comic opera had been provided for the men; but early in the New Year khaki kilts, red and black hose, and leather sporrans were issued and the appearance of the battalion was much improved.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi All,

Khaki kilts were also worn by the 11th Bn, The Black Watch in 1916.

Aye

Tom McC