Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Johnston, Enoch MIC


mattj

Recommended Posts

Hello all

I have a couple of questions for your consideration regarding the administrative shorthand on the attached MIC. Any help much appreciated.

1. Does his regiment number 3/8027 indicate he served in 3Bn of RIR ? The thing is according to what I can find out the 3Bn of RIR never left Ireland. If so how could our man have been in France 02 Dec 1915 (under qualifying date). I know he was awarded a MM for an action at Messines Ridge 1917, possibly other medals too. He was with the 16th Div under Plumer at Messines. However these other medals are not indicated on this MIC, is this normal?

2. Would I be correct in presuming the phrase "dupSub" which appears on the MIC twice is tied to the KR992 and indicates "Duplicate Subsitute" medals were issued as the originals were never claimed? Do the initials BW and KM have any significance? I am also wondering about the notation "DupSub RAF/101B21-539" ? Could it mean two sets of medals were issued due to the fact he was in the RAF after he was in the army and one set of medals was a duplicate?

3. The crossed out number for the RFC (RFC/13c/878), could this have been his original RFC number or is a reference to something else.

4. Does anyone have any idea what the notation on top left hand corner is or could mean. I refer to the small handwritten phrase just above Campaign, beginning "83... " possibly "TRapl 27 10/68 Qty(or Adt?) "

5. Do the letters "Lut" (or possibly "Lw") beside the SWB have any significance?

6. Assuming "Dis" is discharged, does anyone know what the codes "d672" and "c797" under present situation could indicate.

I am very grateful for your assistance.

Rgrds

Matt Johnston

post-23704-1185282313.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Matt,

I think 83 stands for 83rd (County of Dublin) Regiment of Foot. The 83rd (County of Dublin) Regiment of Foot

combined with 86th (Royal County Down)) Regiment of Foot , to form The Royal Irish Rifles in 1881.

"Lut" is actually SWB List, for Silver War Badge List.

BM + KM is actually BM + VM for the British and Victory Medal,s.

(RFC/13c/878) is a reference to the Medal Roll.

3/8027 would indicate the the 3rd Battalion as his first battalion, but he may have kept this number when moved to another Battalion in France.

Regards Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks a lot Mark.

It seems the 3rd Bn R.I.Rif was a training Bn only which was then used to feed the main two Bns out in France. I have discovered that he was transferred to the 2nd Bn R.I.Rif. which is how he ended up in Messines. His MM was announced in the London Gazette 28th July 1917. He was discharged from the army 27 Feb 1918 due to wounds and synovitis (hence the Silver war badge). However it appears he recovered sufficiently to enlist in the RFC that same year. Unfortunately his army service record cannot be found thanks to the shenanigans of the Luftwaffe in WW2.

I have been informed his RFC/ RAF record is _still_ held by the Ministry of Defence and therefore not open for viewing... does anyone know if it is usual for them to hold service records closed this long ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Matt,

I dont want to be the bearer of bad tidings, so to save me giving you the bad news look on the net for Kings regultions 990, 991 and 992. The medals were returned because of them. The ADT/ .... , means Audit. The person in charge of that section had to say what medals went where.

Regards Mike Jones

Link to comment
Share on other sites

look on the net for Kings regultions 990, 991 and 992.

Mike

Any idea where these can be found? Have searched in vain but can't find any reference.

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Peter,

From looking at a previous post

KR's para 992 (1923):

"Medals which, at the end of 1 year, remain unclaimed will be sent to the Secretary, War Office

Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks to all for replies. I have done some more research.

Peter, here is KR 990-992 (1923)

"Kings Regulation 1923

990. Medals left behind by a soldier who absents himself without leave, and is declared by a court of enquiry to be illegally absent, will be forwarded to the officer i/c of records. If the man does not rejoin within one year, the medals will be disposed of as unclaimed.

991. An officer in charge of medals will arrange for their safe custody and will account for them as public stores in accordance with such instructions as may be issued from time to time by the Army Council.

992. Medals which, at the end of one year, still remain unclaimed, will be sent to the Secretary, The War Office."

And about our mans RAF record

"The records for the first 329,000 men who served with the RFC before 1st April 1918, and in the RAF (previously RFC / RNAS) are available for public inspection. The records from the first 329,000 men who went on to serve during the Second World War are still kept by the RAF and are closed to the public. Any man who enlisted after this date 1st April 1918 most likely his record is still held and therefore not available."

A triple whammy then: his WW1 army service record lost, his medals AWOL and his RAF record unavailable.

Edit:

Concerning his RAF record, I have been just told that information can get got by writing to

P MAN 2b(1)

RAF PMC HQ PTC

RAF Innsworth

Gloucester GL3 1EZ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Evening Matt and Peter,

Sorry Peter I have not replied till now, been out all day. Just to make it clear for anyone trying to learn from this posting, the Kings Regulations 990, 991 and 992 are a 3 stage proccess. The soldier does a runner and is declared so = Kings Reg. 990. His medals go on hold = K. R. 991. If he returns within 1 year he can have his medals back. If he does not return in 1 year , then K.R. 992 comes in and they go for scrap. Since these regulations are dated 1923, he did not return. As he seems to have joined the RAF, he was not frightened. Probably fed up with standing in a muddy hole, being shot at, bombed and gassed. Quite understandable really.

Regards Mike Jones

Edited 12th April 2009.

I got this one wrong and am very sorry to the memory of men I have slightged. KR 992 does NOT mean they went AWOL. Further research has made the position clearer.

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Evening Matt and Peter,

Sorry Peter I have not replied till now, been out all day. Just to make it clear for anyone trying to learn from this posting, the Kings Regulations 990, 991 and 992 are a 3 stage proccess. The soldier does a runner and is declared so = Kings Reg. 990. His medals go on hold = K. R. 991. If he returns within 1 year he can have his medals back. If he does not return in 1 year , then K.R. 992 comes in and they go for scrap. Since these regulations are dated 1923, he did not return. As he seems to have joined the RAF, he was not frightened. Probably fed up with standing in a muddy hole, being shot at, bombed and gassed. Quite understandable really.

Regards Mike Jones

Mike --

Thats great info, thanks, as a novice to this area I find interpreting the regulations such as KR a bit confusing.

However in this case, according to further info I got from a contact who has looked up the SWB roll, he was discharged from the army 27 Feb 1918 as a result of wounds received in action and synovitis. Am not sure how this ties in with the "doing a runner" scenario.

Until your post I had believed KR was more directly related to the medals, as opposed to the man, in question and would be applied in other circumstances too - such as if problems arose from delivering the medals ?

Your advice appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Evening Matt,

You have picked an intereting man to research but a very difficult one. Now K.R. 992 says return within 1year and you get the medals back. He must have returned but after a year was up and there is NO leeway. Medals in the Great War were not claimed. They were sent to every qualifying man. Men did have to claim the Bar to the 1914 Star but I cant think of anything else. If anyone knows more, please tell as I am always up for learning. I have not researched your man and am going on what you say. When he disappeared, I have a feeling it was to the RFC. That number RFC 18c/878 is a medal roll entry for the RFC. Now by the time he was discharged legally from the Army it would have been to late to get an RFC award. By then it would be an RAF award. The RFC award was deleted as well anyway.

Regards Mike Jones

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Mike

Thanks again for another informative answer.

I am now in possession of a photostat of the medal roll and it has the following information

Regtl. No. : 3/8027

Rank : Rfm

Name : JOHNSTON Enoch

Units : 2/R.Ir.Rifles, 3/8027, Rfm. (this appears twice in same column, repeated under itself)

Theatre : An "X" followed by a "correct/ tick mark"

BW&VM Retd. (992.KR.1923) CRV.583/B. d/-25/3/24 8362/adt.

Remarks : Reissued MAY 1930 AS/B/2404

Could anyone advise as to what "CRV.583/B" could signify?

Also Mike if 992KR1923 is as you say, that means this man went AWOL and effectively skipped out. Now, leaving aside the human ramifications of desertion, this raises a couple of troubling technicalities.

Firstly, a general point. Given the recent well publicised issue over deserters pardons 90 years on etc, is it a likely scenario they (as in MOD) would reissue medals to someone who had done a runner or skipped out? Particularly that soon after the war ended (a mere 12years on)?

Secondly, if as you suggest the KR implies, he had done a runner I would find it odd that he would then opt to join the RFC almost immediately considering he would have been considered technically a deserter from the army? I say "almost immediately" because his SWB list entry lists his army discharge date as 27 Feb 1918 (due to "wounds and synovitis") and I think its reasonable to infer he joined the RFC before it became the RAF from the RFC reference on his MIC. I believe the RFC and the RNAS became the RAF on 1 April 1918.

Lastly it's clear from the MIC he used the same name without qualms for both services and the records where crosslinked. Given all this I would find it even more extraordinary that he would have even passed muster and been accepted by RAF given his status in the army.

In the words of Alice, curiouser and curiouser.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CRV is a Certified Receipt Voucher.

When medals were taken on charge by the records office, they needed to be recorded (using a CRV).

Regards Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Matt,

It is from stories like this one we can all learn some thing more. It is a bit more complex than the usual Medal Card and military career! Yes CRV is either Certificate of Return Voucher or Certified Receipt Voucher, I am not sure which. Can anyone definitely give us the definitive answer please? You are now moving in uncharted waters for me. So if anyone comes in with more info, I will be on my learning curve. I do not know if someone who has his medals "on hold" has been declared a deserter. My area of knowledge is 2nd Battalion the Worcesters. From the 1914 Star List of the 2nd Bn., there were at least 16 men declared as deserters on the medal roll. None of whom were shot. I do not know if they were caught , as yet, job for another day. There is the notation against each one "NO medals ". You are asking some difficult questions, what is the difference between AWOL and desertion. I am led to believe it is the "Intent" to return or not. Come on in someone and advise us. So why the MOD relented and gave him back his medals in 1930, I dont know.

Now the bit about being able to join the RFC straight away, is much easier. There was no cross referencing of applicants. We now live in the computer age. They did not even have easy access to a phone then. They took someone on face value, you did not need a birth certificate even. Many men joined the Worcesters under false names. Which you would think was harder than joining using your real name. As you at least had some Paperwork for your real name. The cross linking you refer to was done after 1918 when the war was over and the Victory and War medals were authorised.

Regards Mike Jones

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absent Without Leave as it implies: absent without a leave pass, but still, at this point has the benefit of doubt put in his favour. Things like: not coming home from leave, or going over the fence and absenting your self for a couple of days.

Desertion: deliberately abandoning a military post, or duty, without the intention of coming back. Today I think it amounts to more than 28 days absence.

Regards Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks to Mike and Mark for answers.

This is really getting quite odd. It seems not only did the MOD reissue medals to him in 1930 but I now have it on good authority from relatives they also authorised his army pension. Surely this cannot be the norm, given that if it is correct about Kr992, he has actually deserted? Is there no other circumstances under which KR992 would be applied other than desertion/awol?

Aside from anything else I find it incredible to think anyone would desert one service only to sign up to another within a couple of months. Aside from having extraordinary luck in not being caught, it doesn't sound a likely course of action for someone who is doing a runner to me. Surely that is the exact opposite from the direction he should be heading, especially given that in April 1918 the war (both on the land and in the air) was still very much on.

However as mike suggested, perhaps things were very different in 1918.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Morning Everyone,

I am here to make an apology to Enoch Johnston. I put upon him and others the slight that they may have deserted. A serious slight. I may well have got it wrong in my interpretation of KR992. I am still working on Medal Index Cards and new information comes to light all the time. I was sure KR990 + KR991 and KR992 were linked as if they are a 3 stage process. At the moment I am not so sure that is the case. I have now seen many more K.R. 992 that do not fit the "Deserted" scenario. In my defence, I would like to say there was little bit of "Devil's Advocate" in my statement. I felt sure if I had got it wrong, I would be told pretty sharpish. When that did not happen, I became more convinced I was right.

Sorry Mike Jones

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Mike

Are kings Regs for the Army (eg KR/992/1923) the same code for Kings Regs RAF?

Here is the info from his SWB roll

3/8027 Rfn Johnston Enock

R.Ir.Rifles

SWB No 336261

Enlistment date 21/7/15.

Discharge date 27/2/18. (Wounds & Synevitis)

The badge was issue out after 27/2/18.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi TheMonsStar,

Thank you for the reply but I do not Know the answer. I do not even Know if the RFC were operating under Army or separate Regulations during the war. I assume it was Army but look where assuming got me to before.

Regards Mike Jones

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...
... I am here to make an apology to Enoch Johnston. I put upon him and others the slight that they may have deserted. A serious slight. I may well have got it wrong in my interpretation of KR992 ...

Sorry for delay in reply, no apologies necessary there and thanks for the update.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...