How many 'extras' have you found

[Anthony Bagshaw]

Hi All,

Just out of interest, whilst researching a war memorial how many men or women have you found that are not named on it but came from the village/town/city?

For example, the one i am researching has 235 names on it but have found 29 that have connections to the village, and possibly one more to make it 30.

I find it staggering that so many are not on it.

[John_Hartley]

I won't reach that part of my Stockport project for another couple of years so havn't got any firm figures. However, looking at the number of files of newspaper obituaries held at the local heritage library, I suspect it will run into hundreds.

It'll be the "final chapter" and what I intend to do is build the list from SDGW, the obituaries and mention of the area in the CWGC "additional information" field (deleting, of course, the 3000 names that will have been researched by then).

John

[ralphjd]

When our memorial was unveiled in 1923 it had three bronze plaques on it listing 165 names as per the local newspaper at the time of the unveiling. Since then some bas**** has stolen the bronze plaques and the council has replaced them with stone ones listing 143 names (22 short of the original list) many are spelt incorrectly, and in my research I can add a further 68 names with connections to the area, and my wife (as a councillor, is attempting on my behalf to have all the missing names added and the mis-spelt ones corrected.) Rochdale does not have a memorial with names on, it has a cenotaph, but my mate has a database of 2,800 men of Rochdale who paid the ultimate price How big a plaque would that be? Ralph.

[Michael Johnson]

I had a pair to a 102nd CEF from Port Colborne, Ontario, but he isn't on the memorial. I also had a plaque to a Dunnville man who was born in Port Colborne, but again, not on the memorial

[auchonvillerssomme]

Its always an interesting exercise to search SDGW for your village on Born or Enlisted or Residence. Can usually find a few that are not named on the memorial. or 29 on my latest.

Mick

[lionboxer]

We found and added a further sixteen men from both wars to our memorial at Bergh Apton to go with the twenty five already there. There are others that we cannot as yet confirm having firm enough links to the village to merit addition. The research goes on.

Lionboxer

[Jon6640]

Just the one who died in mysterious circumstances the night before embarkation.

[welshdoc]

Does inclusion depend on variable ctiteria in a town or village. For example is it where the person was born, lived, or where his family were e.g. parents? Then I guess it would be down to how such a list was compiled, by information from relative? official reports? . Then again wernt the next of kin asked if they wanted their relative on the memorial? So lots of questions and I have none of the answers. I do have one man though not on our local memorial whose family home was in the town he died in late 1919 in the Baltic. gareth

[Andrew Hesketh]

Depends a little on how you define 'extras'. You say 'came from the village/town/city'.

Whilst doing Tibshelf this is a question I have constantly wrestled with and not yet resolved.

Does living here for years before the war, but not born here or resident here at the time of death mean that he still counts, especially when his death merits a mention in the Parish magazine? What about a chap who worked in the village, was a member of the Men's Institute, was married to a woman from the village, sent his kids to the village infant school but lived in the neighbouring village? Some tricky calls to make.

However, allowing for all possible permutations (admittedly, some are extremely tenuous) for how a chap connects, there are 55 names on the Tibshelf Memorial. With my 'extras' I have 160!

[Anthony Bagshaw]

Guts,

Thank you all for your great responses.

The way the names were collected here in Mansfield Woodhouse, was by the parish council at the time sending 'flyers' to every household in the village (at the time of the Great War, Forest Town, a village 2 miles outside Mansfield Woodhouse, was part of it). These 'flyers' asked the relatives to fill in the soldiers details for inclusion, easy to see how many could have been missed.

There are lads on the memorial whose parents moved away from the village but they are still on there. There are several lads, who are buried here, lived here, born here who aren't on the memorial at all. There is one lad, whose brother was killed on the Somme in 1916, he died in 1921, has a CWGC headstone, but for some reason he isn't on the memorial, yet he died 2 years before the memorial was erected!! hy isn't he on there? CWGC records the same NOK info for them both

Andy,

You raise a good point, how do you decide if he counts as an 'extra'. The way that i'm thinking with this, if he was born here but moved on, he has connections to the village so yes he would count, if he lived here, definitely, if his parents lived here, again i would say yes as he has a connection to the village in some way. He may never have lived here, but he most certainly would have visited his parents at some stage no doubt.

It is difficult, but as i see it, if they have some connection, no matter how small, they ought be be seen as part of that village/town/city.

It's really quite incredible to see how many names were missed off!!!

More please!!

[shaymen]

However, allowing for all possible permutations (admittedly, some are extremely tenuous) for how a chap connects, there are 55 names on the Tibshelf Memorial. With my 'extras' I have 160!

A very similar situation to my local Mem research, 55 nmaes and about the same amount with connections to the village.

Many of my extras were born in the village but many then moved away (really need the 1911 census )

I feel its those who lived in the village at the time of their death that are surprisinly omitted. BUT I will not be one to campaign to have any names added as we do not know why they were not on their in the first place. Sort of re-writing history doesn't seem quite right. Not got any problems with lists of those not on Memorials being penned or put on websites but just not sure about adding new names.

Glyn

[Jarvis]

To date I have found about 30 or 40% more than the local memorials record. Although my research is far from complete they have included men who emigrated, moved away through work or marriage or just not listed.

Some are still to be positively ID'ed as 'local' though they definitely moved to and lived in the area at some point prior to the war.

From another point of view, there are a few who are listed but appear to have very 'tentative' links with the area.

As I have said, my research is far from complete, so it is hard to give exact figures.

Regards

Jarvis

[Andrew Hesketh]

....really need the 1911 census....

... BUT I will not be one to campaign to have any names added as we do not know why they were not on their in the first place. ...

Two good points Glyn.

On the second one, I have several men who I find it hard to believe where omitted because their connections are so incredibly obvious. Presumably the omission was down to unresearchable 'family reasons'. To put a case forward for their inclusion some 90 years later would ride roughshod over what must have been deeply felt emotions at the time and that is something I could not do.

Also if you start playing the game of who should be on the memorial for the sake of accuracy, then for the one or two whose inclusion is hard to fathom you would presumably have to argue a case for their removal. And that would be a definite no-no.

[Anthony Bagshaw]

Glyn,

A good point well made.

I won't be trying to get their names added to the memorial, for the reasons that Andy states, we just don't know why they aren't on there. If it was the familys wish for them not to be, who are we to say they should be.

That was their choice and should be how it stays.

Just coing back to the links thing, this chap wasn't killed but may fit into a nominal roll. He won the VC, wasn't born here nor lived here, his parents did though for 20 odd years. The same question as if he was a casualty of the war, does he be included although he had no connection himself? Well, i for one, do not know!!!

It's interesting though how many we find

[John_Hartley]

There is one lad, whose brother was killed on the Somme in 1916, he died in 1921, has a CWGC headstone, but for some reason he isn't on the memorial, yet he died 2 years before the memorial was erected!! hy isn't he on there?

I have a similar case. Two brothers, both living at home, both killed. Onlt one is one the memorial.

The only thing I can think of is that the "missing" one was "missing", so to speak, in that he has no known grave. I wonder if the family still held out hope that he wasnt dead and that to add his name to the memorial would be acceptance of it. Impossible to know, of course.

John

[John_Hartley]

If it was the familys wish for them not to be, who are we to say they should be.

That was their choice and should be how it stays.

I generally agree with this and certainly wouldnt push for any "missings" to now be added.

However, I make (and have made) one exception. And that's I did ask (and get) my great uncle added to the town memorial. I justify this to myself by saying that I am now the "custodian" of the family history in this respect.

John

[shaymen]

John

A good point - I would suggest that if the request to add a name came from fairly close family then in my opinion no real problem.

A name was added to my local Memorial but it was for WW2 at the wishes of immedaite next of kin.

My point was that researchers like ourselves have NO right to be considering adding names and as Andrew quite rightly points out removing names, as I have a couple that seem to have no real connection to the village but they must have been put on for a reason.

Glyn

[John_Hartley]

Glyn

Here's one of my chap's who, as far as I know, never lived in the area and I reckon was added to the memorial by a relative who did live here.

Francis Lansdown

It's a story with "the lot" - racism, murder, intrigue, unresolved mysteries. I can't resist showing it to folk at every opportunity.

John

[ralphjd]

Glyn

Here's one of my chap's who, as far as I know, never lived in the area and I reckon was added to the memorial by a relative who did live here.

Francis Lansdown

It's a story with "the lot" - racism, murder, intrigue, unresolved mysteries. I can't resist showing it to folk at every opportunity.

John

What a story !! Ralph.

[Anthony Bagshaw]

John,

I agree 100% with what you have said.

If it's family, it's different. Who am i, as a complete stranger with an interest in the Great War, to possibly go against any family's wishes? Nobody.

All, thanks for making this thread so interesting so far.

[shaymen]

John

Truly fascinating story, amazing what we find out when we are researching a local memorial.

'buried in adjacent graves'.... who thought of that idea !!

Glyn

[Greenwoodman]

I am in full agreement with Glyn's PoV. As a researcher I would be prepared to add connected names to a book or web-site. But I would not go against what may have been very strongly held family reasons for not having a name placed on a memorial. I'd go further, and would not take John's stance, unless it could be proven to my satisfaction that the reason for leaving a name off no longer applied (or it could be proved to have been an oversight).

[Guest KevinEndon]

For me it is 12 and 2 of them are in a CWGC listed grave and the grave yard is near the memorial how bizarre

Kevin

[Anthony Bagshaw]

Kevin,

The 2 i have like this are buried less than 100 yards away from the memorial, it is strange.

[azz]

For me it is 12 and 2 of them are in a CWGC listed grave and the grave yard is near the memorial how bizarre

Kevin

I have five not listed on the local memorial, but who are listed in the local church. One of them is even buried in the church yard. Although I think he is commemorated at another memmorial in another district. Also another one had emmigrated to Canada prior to the war.