Chris Henschke Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 I am trying to establish the exact location of the Ecole de Bienfaisance. ( An ADS was there in 1917). does anyone have a map reference? A search on the net has "North side of Poperinghe road, immediately West of railway. " I can't seem to locate it on my trench map, but it must be close to Bedford House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Chris, I'll dig a map out but it can't be near Bedford House...that's not on the Pop road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Chris B - hope you do not mind but I had this one to hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Just to add - I think there was a Aid post in or near railway cutting in 10. c., near to the road. Aurel will know for sure. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Isn't the 'To Ypres' arrow going the wrong way? I'm assuming the orientation of the map is 'north at top'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 What does 'Ecole de Bienfaisance' translate as? Is this a reference to the large technical school that was just outside Ypres, to the west? I seem to remember that it was close to the Menin Road. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 28 December , 2003 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2003 By comparing the map Annette posted with mine, I make the map reference as ; I9c.5.2. Which surprises me because I had assumed it was to the W of Ypres. ( according to the description). if Chris Baker can verify the map ref. I will be happy. I intend to come over in April to see the new Zonnebeke museum and will have a closer look then. I shall be posing a lot more of these questions between now and then, I can't just pop over any weekend like most of you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Unless there was more than one, the Ecole wasn't near to the Poperinge road. Annette's map shows the Menin Road and the point where the railway crosses the road, just to the right of centre, is Hellfire Corner. The Ecole wasn't that near to Bedford House, although the graves from the ADS cemetery were moved to Bedford House Cemetery, so there is that link between the two places. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Ecole de Bienfaisance ? Pas de problème. (= No problem My map YPRES 28 N.W. 4 I.9.c (A map trenches corrected from information received up to 13.7.18) With the name "Ecole". Also on a map of 1917, and I suppose other maps as well. For those who know Ypres : Menin Road, approx. 900 meters (a bit more than 1/2 mile) after passing the Menin Gate there is a water tower on the right, and a street. Halfway the street was the "Ecole de Bienfaisance de l'Etat". Large building. You can't miss it. At least not on the map. For after the war it was not rebuilt. But why don't I make a scan ? Good idea. Hold on. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hussar Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Ken, 'Ecole de Bienfaisance de l'Etat' comes up as 'School of Benevolance of the State' on Babelfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Not the scan yet. Patience please. But I see that some things in the above replies might cause some misunderstanding. Chris H., The Ecole de Bienfaisance was certainly NOT northside of Poperinge Road, immediately west of Railway. However, an understandable error, for that is where the Asylum was (and still is). Ypres 28 NW 4 H.12.d You also say : close to Bedford House. I don't think so. But strangely enough, very close to the Asylum (the Asylum, not the Ecole the Bienfaisance) on my 1918 map I see a "Bedford Camp". Annette, True, two years ago when we (Diggers) explored the Zuiderring we found a place that must have been a small dressing station, near the railroad (Ypres-Roulers). But that was approx. 700 meters west of the Ecole de Bienfaisance. Chris Yes, of course, it looks as if the arrow "Ypres" on Annette's map is pointing the wrong way. But only if you think that the Ecole is on the Poperinge Road. (Which it is not.) Ken, You wrote about "a large technical school just outside Ypres, to the west. I seem to remember that it was close to the Menin Road." Just outside Ypres, to the west : yes, that is where the technical school is now. But that is not near the Menin road, which is east of Ypres. (Maybe you mean the Poperinge Road, which is indeed west of Ypres ?) And : Ecole de Bienfaisance (Weldadigheidsschool) means : School of Benevolence or something. I 'm not sure what the English name is, but my dictionary translates the name "Verbeteringsgesticht" (that was what the school was called in Ypres) : approved school, reform school, house of correction. And now I will scan the map. And also a pre-war photo which I have just found. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 What does 'Ecole de Bienfaisance' translate as? Is this a reference to the large technical school that was just outside Ypres, to the west? I seem to remember that it was close to the Menin Road. Ken Ken, Ecole de Bienfaisance de l'Etat means "State Charity School." Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 And this is the map. The large building, a bit to the right of the centre. "School" I also have prewar maps, naming the same building "Ecole de Bienfaisance". Tom, Charity School probably is a better name indeed. But I must say I was a bit puzzled by the difference between the official name "Weldadigheidsschool" (charity), and the name given by the Ypres population (Verbeteringsgesticht, a sort of school for naughty boys and girls). But maybe the two were very close at the time. Charity for naughty boys and girls ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 And a photo... By the way, Chris (H)... If you are very sure that in your source (document) the ADS is WEST of Ypres... Maybe there was a misunderstanding at the time... Maybe the Asylum I referred to indeed erroneously was called the Ecole de Bienfaisance. I seem to remember that I have seen documents before where the two were mixed-up, or that at least I was puzzled... Sorry if that makes your problem an even bigger problem now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Aurel, it was a beautiful building. (Much nicer than the Crack Meubelen premises which are in K. Steverlyncklaan now!) I've often seen it marked on maps but have never seen a photograph of it. Do you know if the students lived at the school? The groundplan looks as if there might be dormitories. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zijde26 Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 The attached picture gives an old postcard showing the ' Ecole de Bienfaisance ' at Ypres. Gilbert Deraedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 I can only confirm that indeed in 1917 there was an ADS in the 'Ecole de Bienfaisance,. I am almost sure that it was on a plan of evacuation for the II Corps? for the Battle of the Menin Road during 3rd Ypres.Somewhere I have a copy of that plan but can't get hold of it. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Aurel and Gilbert - Great photos of the school, two companies of 1st K.S.L.I. spent time in the cellars of the school while in support, without looking I think the 6th K.S.L.I. had support companies here as well. Aurel- not sure if you are interested in this little bit of info. possibly connected to the small aid post found by your team at the Zuiderring, forgive me if you already have this info. Br.-Gen. Nicholson, 16th Brigade, noted in his report after the attack on Hooge 9th Aug. 1915, the following "Where no natural cover exists for collecting and Dressing Stations, strong deep dug-outs should be constructed some little way off but connected with recognised communcation trenches. Had time permitted, very good ones could have been constructed in Railway cutting in I.16.a." Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Aurel, Tom, Jacky etc Makes a lot of sense to me. And of course the map at the top of the page is Hellfire Corner, on the Menin road. Thinking it was the Pop road, I imagined the railway crossing was the one to the west of Ypres...and the arrow going the wrong way. Duh! I've never seen a pic of the school before. Thank you. I wonder why the original reference was about the Pop road, when this was clearly not right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zijde26 Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 You can find beneath a scan of an air photo of Ypres, showing only the area of the 'Ecole de Bienfaisance' Gilbert Deraedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 28 December , 2003 Share Posted 28 December , 2003 Gilbert, Yes, only the area of the Ecole de Bienfaisance is on the aerial photo. Except for that white spot on the right edge, which must be the southwest corner of the building. And the square of ruins a centimeter or so away from the edge, is what is left of the School House (marked on the map I posted a few hours ago). There is another interesting thing on the map : 4 cm (well, on my monitor screen) north-north-west of the School House is where Jacky's House is. And as everybody can see : his garden is a real mess ! Time you listen to your wife at last, Jacky, and do something about it ! Annette, Correct ! The dressing station we found two years ago was in the railway cutting, I.16.a Well, we thought it was a dressing station, for we found a stretcher in the entrance. But the rest had collapsed. Tom, Yes, the Ecole the Bienfaisance looked a lot nicer than the Crack buildings. Which are a bit closer to the former railway. The Ecole was where now the parking lot of the Picanol plant is, and opposite. (Funny you should mention the name of the street to me : Steverlyncklaan. I just couldn't find it ! Slightly embarrassing !) Chris H. I found the websites you referred to. The ones that situated the Ecole de B. north of the Poperinge road. And also the reference to Bedford House Cem. It said that Enclosure N° 2 of BHC had 437 graves added after the armistice, all but four from the Ecole de Bienfaisance and the Asylum. But no doubt : the Ecole de B. is NOT north of the Poperinge Road ; that's where the Asylum is. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 29 December , 2003 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2003 Aurel, Jacky, etc., I wonder if the Asylum and the Ecole were ever mixed up. The reason I say this is the reference to Ecole de Bienfaisance as being on the Pop road. As Aurel says, he remembers a mix up somewhere. Have a look at the attached image. In June 1917 there was an ADS at the Asylum! I can only assume that this is correct for June. I will get the medical reports for II Anzac when next in Canberra to establish the true position of the ADS in October. Thank you for the photos, Aurel. I shall take copies with me in April, when I visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 29 December , 2003 Share Posted 29 December , 2003 Haven't found the map and sketches yet but my classification system is as good as my garden . In reference to the last posting of Chris I recall now that the evacuation route for the Battle of the Menin Road was for the 2nd ARMY and not the IICorps. I also recall that the cellar(s) were still visible during the 50ies as it was the 'playground' of the local scouts. I will keep looking for the plan. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 3 January , 2004 Share Posted 3 January , 2004 This sketch of the traffic network network behind Ypres in November, 1917 was buried in the attachments of the War Diary of the 6th Canadian Field Ambulance. I pinched it from: http://data2.archives.ca/e/e061/e001503323.jpg . If you are short of sketchs and plans for medical issues, and long on free time, you can find lots of stuff attached to the Canadian online War Diaries. For example, although the Canadians were only in the salient in October and November, 1917, they used the same locations and organization as their the units they replaced. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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