Neil Mackenzie Posted 22 January , 2007 Share Posted 22 January , 2007 Harry was in 57th Squadron RFC. Does anyone have any details on what happened on the day he was killed on 10 August 1917 and in particular where he might have been flying? He is commemorated on the Arras Flying Memorial. His name has come up in a thread before on the Forum as just 2 weeks earlier he seems to have shot down an enemy plane and appears to have been flying a DH4 at the time. See earlier thread. Thanks for your help. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domwalsh Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 Can't help with your query but wondered if this was same man. From The Times, Tuesday, Apr 17, 1906 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 23 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2007 Dominic. Thanks for the reply. I am sure it is the same guy - he was 17 at the time of your newspaper article and before he was in the RFC was an officer in the Queens Own Oxfordshire Hussars (a Yeomanry regiment) so a likely candidate for Harrow. While CWGC has him as HCE Biederman the Oxfordshire County website which list all members of the Yeomanry that died in the Great War has him as HE Biederman as per the article. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domwalsh Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 Maybe someone on the forum can help out with a Harrow roll of honour look-up? Best Dom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 Sky Their Battlefield just gives, Flying a DH4 of 57th Squadron left at 5-30pm on a Photo Shoot, Lt A Calder also KIA with him. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 23 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 23 January , 2007 Bob - thanks for the info, Lt Alexander Calder is also on the Arras memorial. Dom - thanks for the suggestion, I have emailed the Harrow School archivist so hopefully they can confirm if it is one and the same person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 23 January , 2007 Share Posted 23 January , 2007 The official German claims record for that day has only one DH4 listed and that was shot down over Ingelmunster at 10.20am. It was the 21st victory of Ltn. M. Muller, who had shot a Spad down ten minutes earlier. A DH5 was also claimed at 7.40pm by Vfw. O. Koennecke over Malassaise-Ferme - the pilot's fifth victory. This information is found in "The Jasta War Chronology" by Franks, Bailey and Duiven (Grub Street,1998). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 24 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2007 Trebrys. Thanks for the extra info. The DH4 would appear not to be Biederman as the timings do not tie up. The DH5 would be OK for timing but does not tie up to the info from Bob. Maybe they had mechanical problems and simply crashed. Does anyone know where the 57 Squadron was based at the time? Thanks. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linge Posted 24 January , 2007 Share Posted 24 January , 2007 Neil Harrow School Register (Entraces September - Christmas, 1902) has the following: Biedermann, Harry Ernest Charles (Small Houses and The Knoll), son of A. H. Biedermann, Esq., 23, Down Street, W. Cricket IX. 1906: Rackets Player, 1906-07; left 1907 (Jan to Easter Term). Ranching. Great War, Trooper County of London Yeo. 1914; Egypt and Gallipoli; 2nd Lieut. Oxfordshire Hussars; transferred R.A.F.; France, 1917. KILLED, flying in France, August 10th, 1917. Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 24 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2007 Pam. Many thanks indeed for this confirmation - it seems CWGC has his name slightly wrong. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linge Posted 24 January , 2007 Share Posted 24 January , 2007 Neil As the Harrow School Register states his profession as ranching I checked the publication "Activities of the British Community in Argentina during the Great War" it had the following Volunteers from Argentina Roll of Honour BIEDERMANN, Harry Ernest C, 2nd Lieut., City of London Yeomanry, attd. Royal Air Force, killed in action Aug 1917. Employee of estancia "La Marion", Volta Left Argentina Oct 1914 Also the attached small photo Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 24 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2007 Pam - many thanks for the extra info and especially the photo. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 27 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2007 A DH5 was also claimed at 7.40pm by Vfw. O. Koennecke over Malassaise-Ferme - the pilot's fifth victory. This information is found in "The Jasta War Chronology" by Franks, Bailey and Duiven (Grub Street,1998). I have started another thread on this but does anyone know where Malassaise Ferme is? Thanks. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wet255 Posted 11 October , 2014 Share Posted 11 October , 2014 Pam any chance of seeing the photograph please? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 October , 2018 Share Posted 2 October , 2018 Hello, I hope it´s not too late: as far as i know the mission was to taking pics of the front, and never came back. He was born in Buenos Aires Argentina. Does anybody knows were did he studied in Buenos Aires? Excuse my english Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 7 October , 2018 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2018 (edited) Here is the photo. I think he did all his schooling in the UK but may be wrong. I am fairly sure he is buried in Tyne Cot and raised a case with CWGC over 10 years ago but not yet had a (definitive) response. Neil Edited 13 October , 2018 by Neil Mackenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perth Digger Posted 8 December , 2021 Share Posted 8 December , 2021 Neil Did CWGC rule on Biedermann at Tyne Cot? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 9 December , 2021 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2021 (edited) Mike The MOD replied in January 2019 - over 11 years after my original submission. They advised that the original Burial Return for that grave actually records that this was an Officer of the Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders (QOCH) and NOT QOOH but that subsequent CWGC records show QOOH. Their conclusion was supported by the fact that other remains concentrated from the same location are known to belong to men serving with the QOCH. The War Diaries of 7th Battalion QOCH show that they attacked in the location of where the remains were found on 22 August 1917 and suffered a number of casualties including three Officers missing. But it was not all a waste of time. Due to the work done, including information provided by the GWF, CWGC have now decided to amend the regiment on the headstone accordingly. They will also update their records in respect of the personal details of Second Lieutenant Biedermann, including the order in which his names appear and his age. Unfortunately I have not been able to visit Tyne Cot since then to see if the headstone has been updated. Cheers Neil Edited 9 December , 2021 by Neil Mackenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perth Digger Posted 10 December , 2021 Share Posted 10 December , 2021 Thanks for your reply, Neil. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Cross Posted 10 December , 2021 Share Posted 10 December , 2021 A postscript to Neil's excellent research work. The CWGC had almost agreed to let the Soldiers of Oxfordshire Museum 'borrow' the now unneeded and irrelevant 'Unknown QOOH Officer' headstone for display at Woodstock. Their words:- "The CWGC does on occasion loan unknown headstones to museums for the express purpose of furthering understanding of commemoration and the broader work of the Commission, and your request would appear to fall within this criteria. Before we could formally agree to the loan, we would need to know a little bit more about the intended display/use of the headstone, and its setting and context in the museum. We would also wish to review any interpretation that may be created to accompany the display. All costs associated with the loan, including collection of the headstone and delivery to the museum would have to be borne by the loanee. Our standard policy is to offer loans for a maximum of 5 years, although subject to agreement from both parties it is possible to extend these loans." This was a very welcome response to my initial approach and I was optimistic knowing that we could certainly have created a valuable display and indeed interpretation of the CWGC's work. Ultimately it was the potential difficulties and costs in obtaining and potentially returning the headstone that dissuaded us from proceeding ! Close but no cigar. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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