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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

RA Uniform - Tradesman?


AndrewWillis

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I am researching my gt gdfather, James Willis, and have found the attached picture.

post-13537-1168176959.jpg

I am guessing from the cap badge that this is a Royal Artillery uniform, but was wondering if I could narrow it down more. For instance, does the lack of lanyard indicate a non-mounted role (i.e. RGA)? Does the fact that he's got a moustache suggest he was an NCO? And what might the brass hammer and pincer badge on his left arm mean (he was a joiner before and after the war, from Edinburgh)?

I've checked MICs, and there are about 20 possible James Willis's in the RA (1xRHA, 10xRFA and 6xRGA). There is a RGA Warrant Officer second class, as well as an RFA Shoeing Smith - might he be one of them? (or is that just wishful thinking!?)

Any help/advice greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Andy

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Hi Andy,

The badge is a Hammer and Pincers, worn by skilled tradesmen. The Artillery and Ordnance Corps would have many skilled tradesmen (Artificers, Smiths, etc.). The SSgt Artificer tended to be an attached rank from the Ordnance Corps which is why I reckon that the chap in the photo is an Other Rank tradesmen (probably a smith) below Senior Non-Commissioned Officer rank. A list of the trades is in clothing regulations 1914 but I do not have my copy handy.

It is still worn today by REME Artificers, and Class 1 Vehicle Mechanics; but is now commonly called Hammer & Tongs.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

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Andy,

His lack of lanyard is probably more associated with just not wearing it at the moment.

There are lots of photos of RA men not wearing one, even in groups were most are.

Bit unusual for that badge to be worn on the upper left arm, but not unkown.

In the British Army the upper lip was actually supposed to be left unshaved for ORs (KR 1696).

This was not officially dropped until AO 340/1916 when the KR was amended to delete the passage about unshaved upper lip.

Joe Sweeney

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Thanks for the replies - doesn't sound like uniform alone will help idenitfy his MIC and regimental number!

Having read other threads, wasn't sure if horseshoe badge was for farriers, and the hammer/tongs for smiths/armourers? (This man was a joiner on civvy street, so may have been a carpenter etc in the RA - or did they have a wheel badge?)

There is a shoeing smith on the MICs:

Willis, James

Royal Field Artillery 59744 Shoeing Smith

Royal Field Artillery 59744 Corporal

It could be this man, but before he got his stripes?

Cheers

Andy

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Thanks for the replies - doesn't sound like uniform alone will help idenitfy his MIC and regimental number!

Having read other threads, wasn't sure if horseshoe badge was for farriers, and the hammer/tongs for smiths/armourers? (This man was a joiner on civvy street, so may have been a carpenter etc in the RA - or did they have a wheel badge?)

There is a shoeing smith on the MICs:

Willis, James

Royal Field Artillery 59744 Shoeing Smith

Royal Field Artillery 59744 Corporal

It could be this man, but before he got his stripes?

Cheers

Andy

Wheelwright had wheel badge so carpenter would fit but he ain't got that badge. Horseshoe - farrier and Hammer/tongs - smith/Farrier. Despite being a joiner in civvy street, he would have ended up whatever the army needed. Of course he could have been a carpenter in the smith/farrier section ! There was a lot of wood in the limbers etc which also needed repair and maintenance. he possibly got that badge to show he was a trained man.

stevem

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Wheelwright had wheel badge so carpenter would fit but he ain't got that badge. Horseshoe - farrier and Hammer/tongs - smith/Farrier. Despite being a joiner in civvy street, he would have ended up whatever the army needed. Of course he could have been a carpenter in the smith/farrier section ! There was a lot of wood in the limbers etc which also needed repair and maintenance. he possibly got that badge to show he was a trained man.

stevem

Cheers Steve! Any idea whether an OR in the smith's section would be called a 'shoeing smith' on an MIC - or just a 'gunner'?

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The above advice is a bit blurred:

These from Edwards and Langley:

Hammer and tongs or pincers: smith [but not shoesmith], artificer, armourer, fitter and about 20 allied trades.

Bit: collar maker, later saddler, saddletree maker and harness maker.

Horseshoe: farrier, shoesmith.

wheel: wheelwright and wheeler.

spur: rough rider, riding instructor, remount trainer.

None of these were supposed to be worn on LEFT arm, all on upper RIGHT arm.

anecdote regarding a cavalry man wearing spur and horseshoe: 'the only man in the army who could shoe horses at the gallop!'

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The above advice is a bit blurred:

These from Edwards and Langley:

Hammer and tongs or pincers: smith [but not shoesmith], artificer, armourer, fitter and about 20 allied trades.

Bit: collar maker, later saddler, saddletree maker and harness maker.

Horseshoe: farrier, shoesmith.

wheel: wheelwright and wheeler.

spur: rough rider, riding instructor, remount trainer.

None of these were supposed to be worn on LEFT arm, all on upper RIGHT arm.

anecdote regarding a cavalry man wearing spur and horseshoe: 'the only man in the army who could shoe horses at the gallop!'

but -

The establishment for a Field Artillery Brigade mentions only the number of shoeing-smiths and no mention of smith (s). no doubt an RA expert can tell us if the rank of smith/shoeing-smith was given as shoeing smith.

Gunners

drivers

Farriers

Shoeing smiths

saddlers

wheelers

and probably others

I have seen TF photos of men wearing prof badges on their left arm.

stevem

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I am no RA expert but surely guns need fitters and other hammer and tongs trades?

And of course, there was nothing to prevent a soldier wearing a badge on the wrong arm other than his peer group, and every NCO within sight, plus the Adjt, plus ..... Other than rank badges in some orders of dress, the British Army seems not to have liked badges on the upper left ar,.

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I am no RA expert but surely guns need fitters and other hammer and tongs trades?

And of course, there was nothing to prevent a soldier wearing a badge on the wrong arm other than his peer group, and every NCO within sight, plus the Adjt, plus ..... Other than rank badges in some orders of dress, the British Army seems not to have liked badges on the upper left ar,.

but -

Did they call them fitters in 14-18? Perhaps shoeing-smith encompassed all the metalwork trades.

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The following from the Canadian "A Call to Arms" by David M. Love:

Canadian Artillery Units: Pt. 1, Clothing Regs;

Bandoliers to be worn by Sergeants, Corporals, Bombardiers and Other Ranks.

Distinguishing Badges, Table 9, p. 11, all NCO's above the rank of Corporal wear a Gun on service dress jackets; Gunlayers wear an "L" and laurel wreath upon the right arm, above the elbow and above the chevron if in possession of any. Similarly observers wear an "O" with laurel wreath. Cap, Collar and Shoulder badges as issued.

Distinguishing Badges and Chevrons: Regulations for the clothing of the Army; part 1, p. 117.

Hammer and Pincers-Armourers, Fitters, Machinery Artificers, Machinery Gunners and Smiths.

Horseshoe-Farriers and Shoeing-smiths.

Wheel-Wheelers and Carpenters.

Keith

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I am researching my gt gdfather, James Willis, and have found the attached picture.

post-13537-1168176959.jpg

I am guessing from the cap badge that this is a Royal Artillery uniform, but was wondering if I could narrow it down more. For instance, does the lack of lanyard indicate a non-mounted role (i.e. RGA)? Does the fact that he's got a moustache suggest he was an NCO? And what might the brass hammer and pincer badge on his left arm mean (he was a joiner before and after the war, from Edinburgh)?

I've checked MICs, and there are about 20 possible James Willis's in the RA (1xRHA, 10xRFA and 6xRGA). There is a RGA Warrant Officer second class, as well as an RFA Shoeing Smith - might he be one of them? (or is that just wishful thinking!?)

Any help/advice greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Andy

Andy,

While you mention RGA the Bandolier would suggest he was indeed mounted. Lanyards would be worn by non mounted and mounted according to personal preference where as the bandolier was issued to mounted troops.

Alan

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