small scot Posted 27 December , 2006 Share Posted 27 December , 2006 Dear all On Xmas Eve I finally got round to starting to look for information about one of my great-uncles (with help from my other half, who is already on this forum!). Information so far: Second Lieutenant William Bruce MC, Royal Engineers (T.F.), attached 206th Fd Coy, R.E. (Interestingly enough, the Gazette entry for the MC has him down as Lieutenant, but CWGC has him as 2/Lt). Died 3 December 1918 with his working party when German ammunition they were salvaging exploded. MC awarded for supervising bridge-building across a canal on 4 November at Ors, under close-range machine-gun fire, at an engagement which is very well-documented online. As you may be able to guess from the above, so far I have the CWGC data, the London Gazette entry for his medal, and details on the Sambre-Oise canal at Ors. I also have his 1901 census entry, birth cert etc. (no death cert, but I'm not sure if they did them in Scotland for someone who died and was buried in Belgium). From checking the National Archives' online index, they may have his records (there's only about 15 W Bruces to check when I have some time to wander to Kew...). No sign of a MIC though. Does anyone have any idea what I might find of his records if one of the W Bruces is him? Also, would an officer have a MIC? We are assuming that T.F. means Territorial Force, but that's only mentioned in the Gazette, the CWGC just has him as plain Royal Engineers, so any light on that would also be much appreciated. I await with interest comments and suggestions for where and what else to seek out. Many thanks Ailsa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 27 December , 2006 Share Posted 27 December , 2006 welcome officers do have MICs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 27 December , 2006 Share Posted 27 December , 2006 TF would imply a territorial force man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 27 December , 2006 Share Posted 27 December , 2006 this ones a possible but your best bet is officers papers at the NA http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...;resultcount=17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
small scot Posted 27 December , 2006 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2006 this ones a possible but your best bet is officers papers at the NA http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...;resultcount=17 Thanks for all that - I'd forgotten to think about promotion from the ranks. Something else to chase up at Kew now! So if he was a Terrier, then does that make any difference to things? I'd assume it means he was in before the War started, or maybe volunteered early (born June 1895, so 19 by the start of war), but is that a fair assumption to make? Neither of us have any idea or experience in looking for Terriers (except down rabbit holes!), and although I'm acquainted with a modern Terrier: 1) what he knows about their organisation then is next to nothing; and 2) wrong branch of the Services. Thanks Ailsa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 27 December , 2006 Share Posted 27 December , 2006 THIS IS TOO BLOODY SPOOKY FOR WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think I may be your other half's Forum Aunty, and have recently suggested to him that he acquires a famous relative who died at Ors, protecting the bridge builders (and winning a posthumous VC for it). But even spookier (and entirely genuinely), it is only this evening that I have been researching one of 5 men (Frank Hackney) who was killed with William and is also buried at Soumoy. John (Welcome to the Forum, BTW) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoons Posted 28 December , 2006 Share Posted 28 December , 2006 Does anyone have any idea what I might find of his records if one of the W Bruces is him? Also, would an officer have a MIC? We are assuming that T.F. means Territorial Force, but that's only mentioned in the Gazette, the CWGC just has him as plain Royal Engineers, so any light on that would also be much appreciated. I await with interest comments and suggestions for where and what else to seek out. Many thanks Ailsa I checked him in "Officers died in the great war" (got it from Santa) Royal Engineers (Territorial Force section), Bruce, William 2/Lt k in a 3/12/18 but no mention of an MC, nor in the Memoranda at the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 28 December , 2006 Share Posted 28 December , 2006 Details Surname BRUCE Firstname William Service Number Date Death 03/12/1918 Decoration M.C. Place of birth Other (T.F.). SNWM roll THE ROYAL ENGINEERS Rank 2/Lt Theatre of death Unknown Scottish National War Memorial lists him with his MC. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
small scot Posted 28 December , 2006 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2006 I checked him in "Officers died in the great war" (got it from Santa) Royal Engineers (Territorial Force section), Bruce, William 2/Lt k in a 3/12/18 but no mention of an MC, nor in the Memoranda at the end Good for Santa! When was ODGW compiled? It's possible that the MC was awarded after then. The Gazette that confirms his MC is dated 10 December 1919, so he never even knew... Interesting that it counts as killed in action even though the Armistice had been signed almost a month before. Malcolm - many thanks for the SNWM info. Last time I was up there the only man I knew to look for on the memorial was a great-grandfather in the Merchant Navy on the other half of Mum's family - survived WWI, went down with his ship WWII. Going to have to try and get there this summer with a bit of luck! Ailsa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 28 December , 2006 Share Posted 28 December , 2006 Ailsa There's normally a cutoff in ODGW/SDGW at 11/11/18 or very very shortly thereafter. For example, Hackney isnt mentioned in SDGW. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoons Posted 28 December , 2006 Share Posted 28 December , 2006 When was ODGW compiled? It's possible that the MC was awarded after then. The Gazette that confirms his MC is dated 10 December 1919, so he never even knew... Interesting that it counts as killed in action even though the Armistice had been signed almost a month before. The book was compiled in October 1919 - there is a memoranda section with some awards added but not your man, I guess his award just missed the cutoff. It is a thought about killed in action versus died of wounds, perhaps a specific question in the forum might get an expert response? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 28 December , 2006 Share Posted 28 December , 2006 killed in action versus died of wounds, perhaps a specific question in the forum might get an expert response? I wouldnt claim expertise but the normal difference between KIA and DoW is that, in the latter, the casualty had usually reached medical attention before expiring. In cases of accident, like this one, I think the more usual record in SDGW/ODGW would be simply "died". John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 30 December , 2006 Share Posted 30 December , 2006 Ailsa Just to acknowledge the information you've let me have about the circumstances of the six deaths. Oh - and please pass on my thanks to wosshisname for his other thread. Without that, I may not have made the connection when you posted this one. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nittenman Posted 31 December , 2006 Share Posted 31 December , 2006 I'm not sure if they did them in Scotland for someone who died and was buried in Belgium). It probably wont tell you more than you already know and you'll be a tenner to the poorer but they are available from www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk under the heading of 'minor records'. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODYSSEUS Posted 26 October , 2008 Share Posted 26 October , 2008 Hi .....i have been researching my great uncle and have discovered he died at Soumoy with your great uncle and four other soldiers. I went out to the cemetary to visit his grave in 2006 and found it is still well tended. The extract from the book" 206th (1st Glasgow) Field Company, Royal Engineers" goes as follows... "But the dark mantle of tragedy was to descend on the Company. Having moved eastwards to the village of Soumoy in Southern Belgium we were engaged in the search and destruction of mines left by the Germans. One mobile charge , in particular, was causing trouble, and during operations of dismantling , the mine exploded, killing one officer and five sappers and wounding others. For us the war recommenced with a vengance, and Soumoy became a grief-stricken village, where the Companys loss was much felt by the Belgian peasants who were still in the ecstacy of their deliverance" Any further information on this or any other day in the life of the Company would be greatly appreciated. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODYSSEUS Posted 26 October , 2008 Share Posted 26 October , 2008 In the back of the book...206th (1st Glasgow) Field Company, Royal Engineers there is a list of all medals won by the Company and your Gt- Uncle is in it.... Military Cross 2nd Lieut. W. Bruce Also in the list of Officers who served overseas Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 26 October , 2008 Share Posted 26 October , 2008 Something to whet the appetite, Steve, until Ailsa arrives with the main course. Linky link John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 27 October , 2008 Share Posted 27 October , 2008 Ailsa, From the Army War Deaths Officers GRO Bruce, William / 2Lt / RE TF / 1918 (year) / 0.7 (volume) / 141 (page) You can also order certificates from the GRO by post, email, telephone or fax. General Register Office PO Box 2 Southport Merseyside PR8 2JD Email : certificate.services@ons.gov.uk Online: http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/deaths/index.asp Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODYSSEUS Posted 29 October , 2008 Share Posted 29 October , 2008 THIS IS TOO BLOODY SPOOKY FOR WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think I may be your other half's Forum Aunty, and have recently suggested to him that he acquires a famous relative who died at Ors, protecting the bridge builders (and winning a posthumous VC for it). But even spookier (and entirely genuinely), it is only this evening that I have been researching one of 5 men (Frank Hackney) who was killed with William and is also buried at Soumoy. John (Welcome to the Forum, BTW) John... To take spooky one stage further I have just started researching my Great Uncle who died with Frank Hackney at Soumoy......Herbert William Bryant. Have you any further info. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 29 October , 2008 Share Posted 29 October , 2008 Steve Everything I know about the incident (most of which came from "small scot") is on the page I linked to in the earlier post. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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