Sniper Shields

[auchonvillerssomme]

Does anyone have any pictures, descriptions, of the metal plate snipers shields, differences between german and british.

Mick

[ypres1418]

I have (I believe) a german sniper shield standing in my back garden, i'll take a pic tomorrow and pot it on here for you.

Mandy

[auchonvillerssomme]

heres mine...German? british? french?

other side

[Max Poilu]

Mick - being lazy I have cut and pasted most of my post from the last time this came up (lots more pics and info in the link below):

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...1&hl=sniper

Yours is certainly German and Great War - there were many variants in these shields from lightweight models to huge, fully wheeled contraptions. All sides used them but yours is the 'standard' German model, the 'Infanterieschild' from 1916. The front has curved edges to protect the user from bullet splash or richochets. The position of the opening allows maximum protection for right handed soldiers and normally a movable cover is fitted to protect the rifle slot.

To the rear the supports allow the shield to be self-supporting on flat terrain. Many were designed to be portable on the battlefield - in theory. Normally they would have been dug into the trench system or used in large numbers as part of short term or even semi-permanant strong points or sniper posts in trench systems.

Originally these would have been painted in field grey or green or cammoflaged in similar colours to German steel helmets to blend into the surroundings.

Here is a pic of a few various models in my back garden recently (one British, and three German - one rare type with binocular eyeholes):

[auchonvillerssomme]

Excellent reply and pictures. Thanks you have answered my quesion.

Mick

[Simon Jones]

Here is the French pattern, obviously not proof against armour piercing bullets, found ploughed up by the Carnoy Craters in the mid-1980s. There are traces of green paint left on the underside.

Regards

Simon

[Mick D]

Would the user of one of these shields have used some sort of cam netting, to prevent a silhouette when standing behind it with the loophole open ?

Mick D

[2ndCMR]

From what I have read, these were sometimes used as dummies placed on top of the parapet to distract or draw fire, sometimes built into concealed positions.

The problem with them was that in the early war, many German and most British rifle scopes were off-set to the left rather than mounted over-bore on the rifles and so required an inverted "L" shaped loop hole. This made the loop hole larger than it needed to be and caused some other complications in aiming.

The British soon commandeered heavy calibre hunting rifles ("Express rifles") to blow-in the German sniper shields, which I understand the inventors of poison gas and flame-throwers considered most unfair.

[Mick D]

These shields would be such an obvious firing position, that in my mind the opposing sides snipers would be sighted onto them awaiting any movement, and if firing something like 600 nitro, a hit anywhere on the shield would negate the threat from the person behind It!

[Guest gumbirsingpun]

they look like model 1916 sniper shield

this ane in the photo is british

regards

tuna

[James Blonde]

Hallo,

a recent postcard sale on Ebay showing the German shields, near a searchlight unit however it was pointed out to me that they are set up backwards!!!

Kevin.

[tjec]

For 2ndCMR

The British soon commandeered heavy calibre hunting rifles ("Express rifles") to blow-in the German sniper shields, which I understand the inventors of poison gas and flame-throwers considered most unfair. :

Do you know what makes of "Express rifles" were used or photos of examples?

Regards,

Norman

[TonyE]

There is a chapter in Part 3 of my "British Secondary Small Arms" series (due out in about a month) that gives full details of the express rifles.

Essentially the army asked the gun trade to provide express rifles in late 1915, but only managed to find 52 in a range of calibres from .450 to .600NE. This was partly because most gunmakers had already started war work and partly because very few would be "on the shelf" as these types of rifle were generally made to order.

The Director of Artillery then cancelled any further purchases as too expensive (average cost £20 compared to £4 for a SMLE) and experimented with a Pattern 13 re-bareled to .470. This was not considered effective. They continued to try various solutions including suggesting AP bullets for the .276 P.13 but all came to nothing. Eventually the introduction of the .303 Mark VIIW AP solved the problem.

The express rifles were used but were unpopular with the troops and several contracts were let for Express rifle ammunition and for re-loading, including .600NE.

Regards

TonyE

[tjec]

Thankyou Tony,

I will look out for your book.

Regards,

Norman

[2ndCMR]

Thankyou Tony,

I will look out for your book.

Regards,

Norman

Likewise!

Strange that the British government did not do as the Germans did and requisition suitable hunting rifles, particularly those equipped with telescopic sights.

The need was far greater than in the German case.

Presumably the this was unpalatable; though whether the idea of shooting the enemy with hunting rifles or the idea of requisitioning the sportsman's prized possession, I don't know.

[gew98]

Likewise!

Strange that the British government did not do as the Germans did and requisition suitable hunting rifles, particularly those equipped with telescopic sights.

The need was far greater than in the German case.

Presumably the this was unpalatable; though whether the idea of shooting the enemy with hunting rifles or the idea of requisitioning the sportsman's prized possession, I don't know.

TonyE answered this quite clearly , expense , caliber and supply made use of these in any meaningful numbers more than the endeavor was worth.

Whereas on the german side they had many fine hunting rifles in 88 patrone and some in S patrone which worked well for the most part as the germans had a good supply of 88 patronen on hand. As well the rifles were either a gew88 clone mannlicher or a 98 mauser clone , so use was not unfamiliar to their troops as well.

[yellow]

Dont forget the Germans also used the .22 . My friends mate from London was killed by one of these. he was playing cards, stood up then got one straight in the back of the head. Joseph White 4th Battalion Lincs Reg.

All these other calibres which you are talking about were really overpowered for trench warfare where in many cases the enemies trench was not very far away the .22 was the ideal weapon.

Steve.

[Mat McLachlan]

Steve,

Are you referring to the .22LR we use today? I know that SMLEs were often chambered in .22 for training purposes, but I've never heard of them being used in the front line.

Having hunted with .22s for many years, I have to disagree with you that such a low powered round was ideal for trench (or any other) warfare.

Cheers,

Mat

[2ndCMR]

TonyE answered this quite clearly , expense , caliber and supply made use of these in any meaningful numbers more than the endeavor was worth.

Whereas on the german side they had many fine hunting rifles in 88 patrone and some in S patrone which worked well for the most part as the germans had a good supply of 88 patronen on hand. As well the rifles were either a gew88 clone mannlicher or a 98 mauser clone , so use was not unfamiliar to their troops as well.

If you mean Post #13 above, I was thinking of smaller calibre rifles such as deer stalkers used. Very few Express rifles would have been 'scoped'. Of course, scope sights were not as common in the UK, due to the lack of manufacturers, different hunting styles (stalking vs. hochsitz) and I suspect a certain feeling that they were 'unsporting' and/or reflected poorly on the shooting ability of the user.

And of course the Army and WD were largely indifferent to the matter until 1915/16

I take your point regarding the calibre of German sporting rifles. though from the .22" report in this thread, it seems they may have used other calibres also. A wise policy, if true, as a scoped rifle in any calibre is more useful for sniping than any calibre without.

I've read of a man being killed at a mile by a .22 slug that was fired at a high angle by a rook shooter.

[kebabking]

page 3 Classic Threads-Todays harvest...

Has pics of a snipers helmet

(considered very rare I believe)

[TonyE]

I would be very interested to know on what evidence the assertion that anyone was killed by a .22 is based. I know of no use by anyone on either side of small bore rifles, although it is always possible that someone was using a personal hunting rifle.

With regard to the comment about .22 or .177 high velocity rounds, there were very few of those around in 1914/15. About the best on the allied side would have been the .280 Ross or possibly the .276 P.13, pushing a 150-160 grn bullet at about 2900-3000 fps. Most of the small bore high capacity high velocity cartridges were developed in the twenties and thirties.

There was some development of an AP bullet in .276 in 1916/17 but this was dropped as the .303 VIIW did the job.

Regards

TonyE

[mikebriggs]

Would the user of one of these shields have used some sort of cam netting, to prevent a silhouette when standing behind it with the loophole open ?

Major Hesketh-Prichards' book 'Sniping in France' talks extensively about this and he provides good examples of how the sniper plates were disguised within the parapet. Also talks about having black out curtains to the entrance of the snipers post. In fact in one picture an Officer is saying 'close the sniper plate before I open the curtain' or words to that effect

Mike

[Devils Own]

.22 rimfire Winchester Model 74 rifles were issued to British SOE (Special Operations Executive) operatives in WWII for assasination/sniping purposes both in the UK (should we have become over-run) and abroad. I believe that they were also used as short-range sniper rifles in the jungle against the Japanese. I have read one report somewhere (I can't remember where now) about effective head shots killing Japanese at short range. They were fitted with Parker-Hale silencers and there is some discussion as to whether some were also converted to carry a No.42 Enfield Scope.

Steve

[TonyE]

There were a number of different .22LR weapons used by both SOE and the OSS, usually with silencers, including the Colt Woodsman pistol, but the circumstances of their use was different to that pertaining across No mans Land in WWI. There was even a British conversion of the Woodsman to full auto.

I too have seen the reference to picking off the last man of a patrol using a silenced .22, but I would think a No.32 scope (not No.42) would be a tad heavy for a .22 rifle.

Regards

TonyE

[PhilB]

The shields shown in post #11 aren`t actually being used for sniping, only protection, so it wouldn`t matter which way round they were? Phil B