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Remembered Today:

Australian Executed in WW1


BeppoSapone

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Foreign Correspondent Robert Fisk is the guest on todays edition of Desert Island Discs. He mentioned that his father was in France and Belgium in WW1, and that in 1956 they went to see the cottage on the Somme where his father had been billeted in November 1918.

He mentioned that his right wing pro-establishment father had refused to obey one order in WW1. He was ordered to take part in the execution of an Australian, but would not do so. The Australian was executed anyway.

Does anyone know any more about this? As members of this forum will realise, this member of the AIF could not be executed for desertion. I assume he was exected for murder etc.

Fuller details on the prog can be seen here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/desertislanddiscs.shtml

It will be repeated on Friday morning, or can be heard on the net, for the next week or so, using the "Listen Again" feature.

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Beppo, would have to check, but I don't recall any Ausies being executed for anything during WW1. They were given prison terms.

Someone else with more knowledge on the subjest may help.

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Beppo - you beat me to it...I was just about to pose the same question.

Mr Fisk did comment that it was for the murderer of a policeman in Paris: I wondered, too, and my opinion was the same as Kim's...which would beg the question of whether:

1) Mr Fisk (senior) mis-remembered or made it up

2) Mr Fisk (junior) being somewhat anti-establishment embroidered said story to bring in a degree of Colonial down-trodedness to add to it.

Interesting: I was doing the ironing at the time and it quite put me off my stroke.

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Five NZ's were executed for military offences and of these, two were Australian born.

No soldier of the AIF was executed for military offences during WW1 but a couple were executed by civil authorities for murder. However, wasn't hanging the civil authorities execution method and no military personnel would be required to 'take part'. Fisk's story sounds a little contrived to me (or at least embellished).

Tim L.

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I didn't hear the programme but I do recall that Robert Fisk's father was commissioned into the 9th King's Liverpools and that he was involved in an incident in 1919 where a member of the Chinese Labour Corps was executed for murder, I think he commanded the unit. He wrote a piece about it for The Independent several years ago.

Regards

Simon

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A murder whilst on active service had nothing to do with the civilian authorities, and they would be shot if found guilty thats the australians as well.

Regards Charles

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Thanks for all the interesting contributions so far.

So, Fisk's father, an officer in 9th King's, was involved in the execution of a member of the Chinese Labour Corps in 1919.

I believe that Officers and NCOs of the Chinese Labour Corps were

"European", which would include Australian.

As Malcolm has said no members of the AIF were executed, and yet two of the executed members of the NZEF were Australian born, it seems as if we are looking for an Australian serving in the British, or other Empire, forces.

Any further comments or ideas?

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The man was Chinese, ie one of the four executed in 1919 for murder.

Simon

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The man was Chinese, ie one of the four executed in 1919 for murder.

Simon

Sorry Simon, my mistake.

When you said "I think he commanded the unit" I thought you meant the murderer rather than Fisk's father.

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Looks to me this Australian Soldier was executed,

http://www.murderfile.net/axzmembers/names/hasser.htm

Regards Charles

The Bren Gun??? In 1917???

"The camp was a training centre for the use of the Bren gun and both Durkin and Hasser were instructors in the weapon. It was known that thy had recently argued over a local woman but it was other factors which led the Sergeant to deduce that this was a case of murder, not suicide."

Apart from using the wrong word for the WW1 light machine gun it was interesting. Australians could be hung for murder. Were any shot for murder?

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Charles,

You seem to be arguimg against your original post. You firstly said that civilian authourities wouldn't be involved in a soldier on active service committing murder and that they would be shot not hanged.

Now you provide evidence to support that an Aussie murdering another soldier was tried in front of a judge and jury and hanged.

I'm confused! :P

Tim L.

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I caught parts of the repeat of Fisk's Desert Island Discs this morning.

As Steve said earlier, the soldier was sentenced for murder of a policeman - in fact, Fisk said it was "for murder of a Military Policeman in Paris". Does this help confirm/narrow down/disprove etc??

Jim

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Several Australians where executed during WW1, Verney Hasser but one that comes to mind hung for murder.

Regards Charles

I thought it was Verney Asser, see

http://www.wiltshire.police.uk/publication...veny_murder.pdf

Asser was the version given in the local papers at the time.

And just checked the National Archives of Australia, and it's Asser there too.

The camp's name was Sutton Veny, not Sutton Veney as given in the other website, though the latter is a common mis-spelling.

Moonraker

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I caught parts of the repeat of Fisk's Desert Island Discs this morning.

As Steve said earlier, the soldier was sentenced for murder of a policeman - in fact, Fisk said it was "for murder of a Military Policeman in Paris". Does this help confirm/narrow down/disprove etc??

Jim

I too heard this but I am convinced that Robert Fisk's earlier version of the story was that his father was attached to a Chinese Labour Corps unit and that one of the Chinese was executed for murder. This appeared in The Independent in about 1996. If you google Fisk and 'Liverpool Regiment' you'll find various articles and extracts where he refers to his father '2Lt Bill Fisk, 12th Liverpool Regiment' (not 9th as I said before) and also his claim about him refusing to execute the Australian but not the earlier article from The Independent. He refers to his father having a scar on his forehead where he was attacked by one of the Chinese.

Simon

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Tim,

"You seem to be arguimg against your original post. You firstly said that civilian authourities wouldn't be involved in a soldier on active service committing murder and that they would be shot not hanged.

Now you provide evidence to support that an Aussie murdering another soldier was tried in front of a judge and jury and hanged.

I'm confused! tongue.gif"

A training camp in Shepton Mallet is hardly Active Service?

Active Service;

A person subject to military law is attatched to or forms part of a force which is engaged in operations against the enemy, or is engaged in millitary operations in a country or place wholly or partly occupied by an enemy, or is in millitary occupation of any foreign country.

Section 189 Army Act 1881.

Regards Charles

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Five NZ's were executed for military offences and of these, two were Australian born.

No soldier of the AIF was executed for military offences during WW1 but a couple were executed by civil authorities for murder. However, wasn't hanging the civil authorities execution method and no military personnel would be required to 'take part'. Fisk's story sounds a little contrived to me (or at least embellished).

Tim L.

Charles,

Then you would agree with my first post. (Note that I never said those Aussies executed were on active service)

It's just that your post shortly after seemed to be countering what I said.

Or have I just got my wires crossed? :blink:

Tim L.

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Tim,

I do apologise I wasn't countering what you said at all, just stating a fact if an Australian was found guilty of murder on active service he would be tried by a Courts Martial and if found guilty shot. The Australian who supposedly murdered the Military policeman in Paris would fall into this category. As a concsequence someone would be in charge of a firing squad.

Regards Charles

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Ahh.......it all becomes clear. My apologies for mistaking the meaning of your first post.

It would appear then, that we are both pretty much on the same page. The fact that no Australian was executed by military authorities would therefore seem to imply that Fisk's story about an Australian murdering an MP in Paris and consequently being executed by firing squad is in error.

Tim L.

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Tim,

Because no Australian was executed does not mean he was not sentenced to death, the death Warrant would detail, normally a Provost Officer to arrange and carry out sentence. Having said that a death sentence was easily commuted to a lesser punishment.

So yes we are on the right track, was an Australian sentenced to death for murder in Paris?

Regards Charles

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Agreed Charles. It is well known that several Australians were sentenced to death by military tribunals but none of those sentences were carried out. Fisk's story implies that the Australian was executed by military firing squad after murdering an MP in Paris. This cannot be true. Either he was hung by civil authorities (which we both agree would be unlikely in circumstances such as this) or it didn't happen. In either case there would be no need for a British officer to take part.

Tim L.

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