17th London

[Pete1052]

Greetings from the American side of the pond. My step-grandfather, Albert F. Kosh, was born in London and tried to join his dad's regiment, Rifle Brigade, in 1915. Rifle Brigade wouldn't let him in because he was too short, so he had to settle for service in the 17th London. At war's end he was one of five guys still with the 17th who remained from the original men from the 17th Battalion Pals in 1915.

In a book published in about 1940 I read that the 17th London was a territorial affiliate of Rifle Brigade, but I don't know whether that was the case in 1915. I assume that grandpa would have picked a Rifle unit as the next best thing to being in Rifle Brigade.

Postwar grandpa spent 1919 in a beery haze and then straightened himself out. He emigrated to Australia and farmed a station, and later emigrated to the San Francisco bay area of California, US. That was just in time for the Great Depression in 1929. He founded his own small building construction company and died in the '70s. His first-born son, Peter, died at age 8 from a congenital brain tumor that is believed to have been linked to grandpa's exposure to chemical agents. I'm named after that kid.

Can anyone here tell me about the 17th London?

Pete

[PBI]

This is The Drill Hall of The 17th Londons (Poplar and Stepney Rifles),in Tredegar Road,Bow,London.

[Graham Stewart]

Pete,

Welcome to the Forum and as it is I've recently answered a post that deals with the 17th London's. The 17th(County of London)Bn, London Regt(Poplar & Stepney Rifles), were an amalgamation of the 2nd Tower Hamlets Rifle Volunteer Corps & 15th Middlesex Rifle Volunteer Corps in 1908. The attached photo is the uniform of the Tower Hamlets. The 17th London was also affiliated to the Rifle Brigade.

From 1881 to 1908 both the 1st & 2nd Tower Hamlets & 15th Middlesex had been affiliated to the Rifle Brigade as Volunteer Battalions of that Corps. In 1926 the 17th London was retitled the 17th London Regiment(Tower Hamlet Rifles), before being renamed again in 1937 as the Tower Hamlet Rifles, The Rifle Brigade. So there you have it the affiliation to the Rifle Brigade had been since 1881.

Graham

[Pete1052]

Thanks for your response. So my hunch about the Rifle Brigade affiliation was correct after all. It's a sign of sheer genuis when a guy says something that agrees with you!

Grandpa said that after heavy losses the battalion was reconstituted with Cockneys from East Ham, some of whom were prone to shooting officers in the back when it came time to "go over the top." Grandpa was a corporal and was offered a decoration if he'd accept a commission, but he declined it due to what was going on in the battalion.

Pete

[delta]

Some more info on the formation of the Regiment

http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/volm...vinf/L17psr.htm

[Pete1052]

Thanks everybody for the great information. Please, nobody should feel slighted if I don't reply to each and every response.

I bought a 17th London tie by mail order some years back. As an American I've learned the hard way not to tell people that I'm wearing a British regimental tie--people here yawn and roll their eyes. Some years ago I stopped off in London after a trip on DoD business to the Persian Gulf (suckering the East as Kipling would say). As I was once a U.S. Army field artilleryman, enlisted and officer, I bought myself a Royal Artillery tie as well as a Royal Greenjackets one.

I still have grandpa's dad's Rifle Brigade cap badge. It has the campaign credit "Africa" on it. Grandpa's dad wasn't in the Boer War, he was in Britain during that war.

Pete

[PBI]

The Heavy Losses in the Battalion your Grandfather mentioned were almost certainly,when they suffered over 350 casualtys,due to the Battalions part in the capture of High Wood on September 15th 1916,along with other London Battalions of the 47th London Division.An excellent account of the Londons Fight for the Wood is included in Terry Normans Book..The Hell They Called High Wood.There is also another very good publication called THE POPLARS by Ron Wilcox.You should be able to purchase a copy by contacting the following.

www.eastlondonhistory.org.uk

mail@eastlondonhistory.org.uk

You can still pick up a 17th Battalion Cap badge without too much trouble.

[PBI]

17th Londons Signal Section.

[Pete1052]

Grandpa's only surviving child, my Uncle Al, said grandpa had vivid memories of a fight wherein the 17th London fought surrounded for several days at a winery, which had bean fields around it. Uncle Al said his dad said that they had beans to eat and wine to drink, so they held out. That could be the Somme battle you describe.

I'm told that some people regard us Americans as being insufferable know-it-alls, but that's just what grandpa thought of us when he met his first Yanks, '17 or '18. He was a muddy corporal living in a hole in the ground when my countrymen walked up, demanding to know where they could take a bath.

Grandpa told them that bathing wasn't a good idea on the front lines. My countrymen responded with words to the effect that if he or the BEF knew anything about fighting a war the Germans would have already been defeated.

Grandpa sighed and told them where a creek was, but he warned that at a certain hour, punctually every day, the Germans shelled the area with artillery fire.

The Americans went to the creek and took their bath.

The Germans shelled at the appointed hour.

The Americans were all killed.

Grandpa survived the war, and went on to become an American citizen.

[Pete1052]

Thanks for the link. I believe I've viewed it before but I'll certainly go back for another look.

Grandad had no particular fondness for guns: when dad came back from occupation Japan in '46 with a 7.7 mm Arisaka rifle grandad took the firing pin out of it. Later, when I told him I'd obtained a No. 5 Enfield "Jungle Carbine" he had no response at all. He'd seen what those things do to people.

[Pete1052]

Another 17th London story.

Grandma told me that my grandfather was proud of his pink feet, and that in the morning he'd often give them a brisk rubdown. She said that he fell asleep one night standing in a trench, and in the morning the water he'd been standing in had frozen into ice. He couldn't take his boots off because the flesh of his feet was frozen to the leather. Earlier grandpa had taken a flask of whale sperm oil off a German corpse--the oil was most likely for small arms maintenance. Grandma said he poured the oil into his boots to separate his feet from his boots. That done, he crawled to the battalion aid station.

I imagine that he was evacuated rearward to another medical facility, where the RAMC surgeon told him that his feet needed to be amputated. Grandpa said please hold off until it's absolutely necessary. So for a few weeks he hobbled around on crutches until he'd made a complete recovery.

He went back to the battalion, glad to have his feet, even though they were forever pink.

[stiletto_33853]

Pete,

There is an interesting little piece on the History of The Tower Hamlets in one of the Rifle Brigade Chronicles. If you would like thislet me know and I will scan it and send it to you.

Andy

[Pete1052]

Andy,

Sure, send it to me.

As long as there are men in green on the flanks of the infantry Britain has nothing to worry about.

When I got no responses to my messages I got concerned that my war stories about grandfather were too gruesome. Well, it was not a nice or pleasant war.

Imagine, if you can, a sane and rational world in Victorian England--right was right, wrong was wrong, the world was rational and everywhere you looked the world was improving. Everyone knew what moral standards were.

Then the nightmare of the Great War--there's nothing you can believe in anymore, no moral values, no politicians, no government, nothing at all. Must of been a shock that unhinged some people.

The world collapsed around them: But the soldiers and people did what they had to do--go on going on with life.

Pete

[PBI]

Possibly your Grandfather might have served under this officer ?,my Gt.Uncle was His Runner at High Wood.

[Graeme Heavey]

What a magnificent photo!

I dont know if the drill hall is still there anymore. I think I'll have a look see.

[PBI]

The Drill Hall has gone,in its place is a Royal Mail Sorting Office.

[noe]

Just came across this thread. I thought I'd add my grandad to list of 17th london reg history. Harry/Henry Noe joined the 2/17th's in 1916, and severed in Palistine I beleive, then in 1918 went to nothern france, where he was awarded the DCM whislt at 'Helchin, belgium.

PS, I've tried to add some pictures of him, but although I've added them, they do not show ????

My avstar is a portrate of my grandad though.

[Pete1052]

Noe,

Thanks for the information. I've nearly exhausted my supply of grandpa's wartime anecdotes, so we need more people to come forward with additional information about the 17th London.

I emailed grandpa's surviving son, also named Albert Kosh, about this site. He answered my email--now I've got to convince him to register and come on board. He'd know more about his dad than I do.

Pete

[stiletto_33853]

The Tower Hamlets Rifles.

By Major (retd) T.L. Craze.

The true origin of a volunteer organisation in the Tower Hamlets is lost in the mists of time. There is some evidence of volunteers from the area going with the army of King Alfred to fight the Danes at South Benfleet in 894 AD recorded in the Anglo Saxon Chronicles, but this would be difficult to substantiate. However, by the time the "Fraternity of the Guild of St. George" (now the HAC) received their charter in 1537, trained bodies of volunteers already existed in the Tower Hamlets.

In 1585 Queen Elizabeth 1 raised volunteer units in the London area for the defence of the capital under officers of the HAC. They quickly rose to some 4000, in Trained Bands. In response to the sailing of the Armada in 1588 those bands mustered at Tilbury where they were reveiwed by the Queen. The eventual fate of the Spaniards removed the need for these men and they were demustered. However, Jame 1 thought it necessary to remuster companies of Trained Bands in 1614, due to worries about his own safety in the capital.

During the Civil War the nine regiments of Trained Bands raised in London took Parliaments side and the Tower Hamlets Regiment was present at muster in 1643. In 1649, the Trained Bands, except those in London, were disbanded and replaced by the Militia. The following year volunteer units were again raised in London and their numbers increased upon the landing of Charles II in 1651. After the battle of Worcester, "The Regiments of Volunteers of the City and Parts Adjacent" were disbanded.

[stiletto_33853]

At the restoration all Trained Bands, except those of London, were disbanded. Once more during the reign of James II, London Regiments of Volunteers were raised and increased in numbers and just after the succession of William and Mary 13,000 London Volunteers were reviewed including those from the Tower Hamlets. When France declared War in 1744, "Gentlemen Volunteers of London" were raised but disbanded in 1746.

An Act passed in 1758 made it possible for Militia companies to include volunteers in their numbers and the following year the London Militia were reviewed in Hyde Park by the King. The Treaty of Paris resulted in the disembodiment of the Militia in 1763. By 1778 the Militia, which had been re-embodied because of the American War of Independence, were once again authorised to include volunteers in their ranks and for seperate voluteer companies to be formed, including of course the Tower Hamlets. The following year the volunteer force was authorised to be increased to 30,000. Afgter the Treaty of Versailles in 1783 the volunteers were stood down until the threat of Napolean in 1794, when they were raised again. Corps of volunteers were formed in the Tower Hamlets in 1798 and at a review in Hyde Park the following Tower Hamlets Regiments were present: Mile End, Whitechapel, Ratcliffe, Limehouse, Blackwell, and Poplar, Bromley, Shoreditch, Hackney, Wapping abd Christchurch. The numbers of volunteers increased between 1803 and 1806, when a Act of Parliament started the replacement of volunteers by an increasing Militia. It is interesting to note that what was probably the first Rifle Volunteer unit was raised in Hackney in August 1803 to be known as the "Corps of Hackney Volunteer Riflemen", and at the first meeting it was resolved that "Every member.........provide himself, at his own expense, with Arms, Accoutrements and Uniform, exactly according to the Patter, which shall be as nearly as possible the same as the 95th Regiment" (later Rifle Brigade). The end of the Napoleonic War led to the disbandment of the remaing volunteers on 6th July 1814.

[stiletto_33853]

Further problems with France led the the raising of a Volunteer Force in 1859. The 1st Tower Hamlets Rifle Volunteers appeared on the scene in April 1860 and a total of twelve THRV units were raised by February 1861. In addition the Custom House and Docks raised two units, the 26th and 42nd Middlesex Rifle Voluteers, which were amalgamated to form a new 36th (Customs and Docks) Middlesex Rifle Volunteers in 1866. The 1st, 5th and 11th THRV were soon disbanded, the 2nd and 4th becoming a new 1st in 1868. The 8th and 9th also joined the 26th Middlesex in 1868. The 12th went to the London Rifle Brigade in 1870. In 1874 the new 1st and the old 6th became the 1st Tower Hamlets Rifle Volunteer Brigade and the 4th Vounteer Battalion og The Rifle Brigade in 1881. They changed to a non-rifle role in 1904 when they became the 4th Volunteer Battalion of The Royal Fusiliers and the 4th (City of London) Battalion The London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) in 1908.

The 26th (Customs and Docks) Middlesex Rifle Volunteers became the 15th in 1880 and the 2nd Volunteer Battalion The Rifle Brigade in 1881.

The 3rd, 7th and 10th THRV became briefly the 3rd THRV and then the 2nd in 1880. The following year they became the 9th Volunteer Battalion The Rifle Brigade.

[stiletto_33853]

The Boer War resulted in all the Tower Hamlets units sending volunteers to the City Imperial Volunteers, Imperial Yeomanry, The Kings Royal Rifle Corps and the Royal Irish Rifles. From this came the battle honour "South Africa 1899-1902".

In 1908 the 2nd THRV and the 26th (Customs and Docks) Middlesex RV became the 17th (County of London) Battalion The London Regiment (Poplar and Stepney Rifles). During the First World War the 17th were increased to three battalions. The 1st Battalion served throughout the war in France and Flanders with the 47th Division. The 2nd Battalion started in France and then moved to the Middle East with 60th Division where they eventually took part in the capture of Jerusalem. In 1918 they returned to France and finished the war with 30th Division. The 3rd or Reserve Battalion served as a Training and reinforcement unit, and at oine time was stationed at Hazeley Down Camp near Winchester and in the City of Westminster itself. The 17th became a Territorial Battalion of The Rifle Brigade in 1916.

On re-establishment of the Territorial Army in 1920 the 17th had been reduced to a single battalion with the same title. In 1922 this was modified to the 17th London Regiment (Poplar and Stepney Rifles) and then in 1926 the old title re-appeared as they became 17th London Regiment (Tower Hamlets Rifles), their long association with The Rifle Brigade being recognised in 1937 when they were renamed Tower Hamlets Rifles, The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consorts Own).

[stiletto_33853]

Pikeman of the Trained Bands of London (1643) of which the Tower Hamlets formed a part

[stiletto_33853]

Bethnal Green Volunteer Light Infantry 1793 - 1812

[stiletto_33853]

In 1939 their role was changed to that of a Motor Bn, that is to say each company would be attached to a regiment of tanks in an Armoured Division, being used for such tasks as throwing a screen around the tanks at night, carrying out skirmishing attacks against anti-tank positions and similar tasks where the progress of the armour was held up. A 2nd Battalion was raised in the same year,and a 3rd in 1940. The 1st Battalion went to the Middle East as part of the 2nd Armoured Division, landing at Port Said on the last day of 1940. Over the next two years they changed locations and command a bewildering number of times and were involved in some of the fiercest fighting in the Western Desert, including Tobruk. The Battalion had become the 9th Battalion The Rifle Brigade in 1941 and by 1942 because of the difficulty of providing reinforcements for the four battalions of The Rifle Brigade in the Middle East, it was decided the 9 RB as the "junior" battalion would be disbanded, its name and cadre eventually given to the training battalion at Retford.

The 2nd THR became the 10th Battalion The Rifle Brigade in 1941 and as part of the 6th Armoured Division took part in the landings in French North Africa in 1942 as the only British Armoured Division in 1st Army. After involvement in Battles at Bou Arada, Kasserine, Foudouk, and Kairouan, where they first met units of the 8th Army, they were joined by units from that Army for the final assault on Tunis. It was the 10th Battalion that helped in the breakthrough at Hamman Lif, the last stronpoint held by the enemy, and formed part of the chasing group which cut across the base of the Cap Bon peninsula to Hammamet, joining up with the 8th Army at Enfidaville.

After the end of the war in Africa the Bn returned to Alegeria where a period of training interrupted by a Company being sent as part of a special force to Carthage to guard Winston Churchill who was dangerously ill and it was feared that an airborne raid might be made on the villa in which he was staying.

The Battalion finally left Africa on the 12th March 1944, landing at Naples on the 14th. Early in April the Battalion was sent to the Cassino area as ordinary infantry for ten days of intensive night patrols.

Returning to their role as a motor battalion they took part in the breakthrough at Cassino which started on the 11th May. Spearheading the eventual breakout they made their way north towards Rome and then on to the mountains of Northern Italy where every hilltop had to be bitterly fought for. Finally in March 1945, after 2 RB had been decimated at Tossignano a sdaly depleted 10th Bn joined them to form a new 2 RB which ended the war at Klagenfurt in Austria.