Beersheba air raid

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

LC Wilson in his description of 3rd LHB operations writes:

"The 9th Light Horse Regiment was now ordered to move from 1080 to Tel el Saba, and take up a second line 1040-960, to cooperate with the 10th Light Horse Regiment holding the line 1020-970, in cutting off an enemy's retreat (from Beersheba towards) Hebron.

When nearing Tel El Saba the 9th Light Horse Regiment was bombed by 2 enemy aeroplanes flying at the extremely low altitudes of 800 feet, and suffered very heavy casualties in both men and horses. Including the subsection Machine Gun Squadron attached to 9th Light Horse Regiment, casualties sustained were:-13 other ranks killed, and 3 Officers and 17 other ranks wounded, 20 horses wounded and 32 horses killed."

Here's what the 9th LHR War Diary has to say on the subject:

"When nearing the Tel el Saba redoubt an enemy aeroplane flying at about 800 feet bombed C Troop of C Squadron killing Leahy, 2815 Trooper CM; Morrison, 2939 Trooper DJ; and, wounding severely Linacre, Lieutenant FJ; and, Williams, Captain H; and, wounding nine Other Ranks. 19 horses were killed and 6 wounded. Many casualties were also inflicted on New Zealanders and No 1 Sub - Section of 3rd Machine Gun Squadron who was close by."

'The 9th Light Horse Regiment was now ordered to move from 1080 to Tel el Saba, and take up a second line 1040 - 960, to cooperate with the 10th Light Horse Regiment holding the line 1020 - 970, in cutting off an enemy's retreat (from Beersheba towards) Hebron.

This is the description in Darley:

"When nearing Tel el Saba the 9th Light Horse Regiment was bombed by 2 enemy aeroplanes flying at the extremely low altitudes of 800 feet, and suffered very heavy casualties in both men and horses. Including the sub - section Machine Gun Squadron attached to 9th Light Horse Regiment, casualties sustained were: - 13 other ranks killed, and 3 Officers and 17 other ranks wounded, 20 horses wounded and 32 horses killed.

The 8th Light Horse Regiment had received orders from Headquarters, Anzac Mounted Division to rejoin 3rd Brigade Headquarters. When so doing they were also bombed by enemy aircraft flying at a very low altitude. The CO Lieutenant Colonel Maygar, VC, DSO, was here mortally wounded, and died the following day."

Here's the Official History story in Gullett:

"At 5 p.m. the regiments received the order to advance on the line between the two Hills 1040 & 960, and moved off smartly on their horses. As the 9th Regiment cleared Tel el Saba on its right, an enemy aeroplane swooped down and dropped bombs from a height of about 800 feet. The aim of the German pilot was sure, and both the 9th and the machine-gun squadron suffered severely, Captain H. Williams and Lieutenants F. J. Linacre and A. N. McL. Brown being wounded, and thirteen other ranks killed and seventeen wounded, while thirty-two horses were killed and twenty-six wounded. Swinging round, the same airman then inflicted losses on the New Zealanders.

Regiments met with little or no opposition in their advance, as Grant's men were now in Beersheba.

All day the German airmen were bold and effective in their bombing. Both Chauvel's and Chaytor's headquarters were severely punished, and also came under a good deal of shell-fire. At 2.30 p.m. two enemy machines flew very low over the 8th Light Horse Regiment. The Victorians had just received orders to report to Chauvel's headquarters, and were in close formation, and the Germans, using both bombs and machine-guns, quickly caused many casualties. Lieutenant-Colonel Maygar, V.C., and his grey horse were both severely hit by a bomb, and the animal bolted into the darkness. The regiment never saw again their loved and gallant leader. Many troopers dashed off in pursuit, but, when the horse was found covered in blood, Maygar was missing. He was picked up during the night by other troops, and taken with all possible speed to hospital. But his wound, and the subsequent loss of blood before he received assistance, proving fatal, he died on the following day at Karm."

Here are Gullett's jottings on this event:

The NZMRB History states:

"The horses of the Sqn and the AMR (and horse holders) were attacked by two enemy planes about 4.30 pm, but as they were flying very low the concentrated fire of the reserve guns and the Hotchkiss guns and rifles made them change there direction. Unfortunatley an Australian MG sect recieved their bombs".

The NZMRB War Diary says:

"Two hostile aeroplanes flew over Tel el Saba at 1730 dropping two bombs."

Tallying the deaths from the 9th Light Horse is easy - 3 deaths as a consequence of the air raid:

3255 Private James Lowry BODKIN;

2815 Private Claude Michael LEAHY; and

2939 Private Donald James MORRISON.

3rd LHMGS

1497 Private John Currie CUMMING 3 LH MGS;

499 Private William Irvine HUTCHINSON 3 LH MGS; and,

448 Private John Thomas STILL 3 LH MGS.

To date Steve and I can only find 6 men killed through this air raid. Yet Wilson claims 13, so we have a missing 7 men from this air raid. I have a great deal of respect for Wilson's number - he was a man who believed in precision and accuracy to a fault - so the difficulty is establishing who the missing seven were.

There are only two other sources for this conclusion:

1. Wilson included other air raids that occurred during the day. If that is so then we can add into the number Maygar and the likes.

And/or

2. The New Zealanders from the nearby Auckland Mounted Rifles copped a pasting with 7 deaths.

Here's the AMR list of deaths for 31 October 1917:

13/283 Captain Sidney Charles ASHTON

13/2418 Trooper Cecil BLONG

31065 Trooper Reginald Hadderton BURROW

43170 Trooper Frederick DENNIS

17593 Trooper William Henry HAWKINS

13/368 Lieutenant William Henwood JOHNS

13/2573 Trooper Robert Thompson MILLER

12887 Trooper Peter George WHITE

We suspect that most of these deaths, if not all, related to the storming of Tel el Saba prior to the air raid and that in view of the description in the NZMB History, no New Zealanders were killed by the air raid.

So now we have a mystery.

Who were the missing seven?

Cheers

Bill

[Terry Denham]

How about

Shoeing Smith Richard Heinrich

752 3/ALH MGS

KiA 31.10.17

Beersheba War Cemetery

and

Trooper Frederick Charles Gates

11/1801 Wellington Mounted Rifles

KiA 31.10.17

Beersheba War Cemetery

[Terry Denham]

Still died of wounds on 01.11.17 as did

Trooper Charles Cecil Merritt

3/ALH MGS

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Terry

G'day mate

Thanks for your posts.

Just to help you out here, I have posted a list of all men killed in action or died of wounds on or around Beersheba on that day.

4052 Private SULLINGS Herbert Angus 1 Light Horse Field Ambulance Killed in action 31 10 1917

2000 Private BULL Alfred Douglas Norman 1 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 2 11 1917

2634 Private DAWSON Albert Edward 1 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 4 11 1917

1437 Private FAINT Arthur Clyde 1 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 4 11 1917

1314 Private FRIENDSHIP Frederick 1 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

3061 Private GUYER Claude 1 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 4 11 1917

3063 Private HARGRAVE Karl Fletcher 1 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

2038 Private ILLINGWORTH George Leonard 1 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 4 11 1917

271 Private LENEHAN Patrick Joseph 1 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1646 Private MADDISON Sidney Alfred 1 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1564 Private McCLYMONT Alexander Thomas 1 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

2646 Private MULLEN Dennis 1 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 3 11 1917

1335 Private ROBINSON Frederick Charles 1 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 4 11 1917

1727 Private TUCK Harold 1 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

312 Private McCARTHY Ivanhoe 10 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1956 Private KERRIGAN William Edward 11 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

279 Private BRADBURY William 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

916 Private BULL Colin Brodie 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

82 Private BUNYAN Harry 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1154 Private CHARTERS Bute Alfred 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

923 Private COLEY Harry Rex George 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

848 Private COOKE George Herbert 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

924 Private COTTER Albert 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

134 Private FIELDING John Henry 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

301 Shoeing Smith FLOOD William Thomas 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

316 Private HILLS Cecil Thomas 12 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 3 11 1917

339 Private KILPATRICK James Murray 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

172 Private McLELLAN Alexander Hugh 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

265 Corporal NEERGAARD Ejgie 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1851 Private SMITH Clifford 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1909 Private SMITH Joseph William 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

199 Private WOODD Mervyn Cyrnos 12 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1836 Private FUZZARD Richard 13 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 4 11 1917

328 Lance Corporal MOLONEY T.E.J. 13 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 2 11 1917

1229 Private ANSELL Frank 2 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

3349 Private BECK Carl 2 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1304 Acting Corporal DINSDALE Thomas Stevenson 2 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

735 Private DURHAM George Thomas 2 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

509 Driver FOGWELL Jack 2 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 3 11 1917

1248 Private KELSALL John 2 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 4 11 1917

Captain MARKWELL William Ernest 2 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

545 Private MARTIN George Bernard 2 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

880 Private McMARTIN Allan Gordon 2 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

713 Private STOWER Robert William 2 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 31 10 1917

603 Private SWANSON Walter 2 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

1117 Private WALLACE Albert Stuart 2 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1445 Private WEEKS George Rickart 2 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1472 Private WOOSTER Alfred Clive 2 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 2 11 1917

2859 Private BOUNDEY John Richard 3 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

2866 Private DAWSON Robert Raymond 3 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

2628 Private DEARMAN John Herbert 3 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 31 10 1917

2462 Private KELLY Francis 3 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

2879 Private LITCHFIELD Walter 3 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

2212 Private PRIOR Andrew James 3 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 2 11 1917

954 Private RANFORD Clem 3 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1493 Acting Sergeant RODGERS Alan Chamberlin 3 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 2 11 1917

191 Lance Corporal SANDLAND Morton Reginald 3 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1762 Private TREGILGAS Archibald Stuart 3 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

2952 Private BEAZLEY John Stephen 4 Battalion Killed in action 31 10 1917

3650 Private BELL Harold Thomas 4 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

379 Private BURTON Francis James 4 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

91 Private CLEAVER Edward Randolph 4 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 31 10 1917

124 Driver KINGHORN Walter Rodney 4 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

Captain MAYGAR VC Leslie Cecil 4 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

1178 Private McGRATH Francis Edmund 4 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 31 10 1917

518 Bugler MEREDITH Benjamin Peter George 4 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

147 Private MITCHELL Sydney Newman 4 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

1501 Private MORLEY Robert Herbert 4 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

741 Private REINEKE John 4 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

1051 Private WHEELINS Clifford Knapsey 4 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 4 11 1917

3650 Private WICKHAM Harold Thomas 4 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

752 Private WOMERSLEY Edward 4 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 2 11 1917

1497 Private CUMMING John Currie 8 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

499 Private HUTCHINSON William Irvine 8 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 31 10 1917

448 Private STILL John Thomas 8 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

3255 Private BODKIN James Lowry 9 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 1 11 1917

2815 Private LEAHY Claude Michael 9 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

2131 Private MANUEL Robert 9 Light Horse Regiment Died of wounds 3 11 1917

2939 Private MORRISON Donald James 9 Light Horse Regiment Killed in action 31 10 1917

2373 Private CRAGGS Ernest James Imperial Camel Corps Killed in action 31 10 1917

2455 Acting Sergeant GREENHALGH Walter Bede Imperial Camel Corps Killed in action 31 10 1917

2133 Private RICHARDS George Henry Imperial Camel Corps Killed in action 31 10 1917

864 Private OSBORN John Died of wounds 1 11 1917

As for the New Zealanders we have the following:

Capt SC Ashton AMR 31-10-17

Pte C Blong AMR 31-10-17,

Pte RH Burrow AMR 31-10-17,

Pte F Dennis AMR 31-10-17,

Pte FC Gates WMR 31-10-17,

Lt WH Johns AMR 31-10-17,

Pte RT Miller AMR 31-10-17,

Pte PG White AMR 31-10-17.

Pte HC Brown WMR 2-11-17,

Sig TJ McMahon NZ Sig Sqn, 4-11-17,

Pte M Clayton CMR 5-11-17,

L/Cpl LJ Greenslade CMR 5-11-17,

Pte P Mannix AMR 5-11-17,

L/Cpl SB Perrett NZ MGS 5-11-17,

Pte FH Twomey CMR 5-11-17, and

Pte RS Vincent CMR 5-11-17.

Finding the names is the easy part. The trick is finding out who was near the air raid at 1700 on Tel el Saba.

We can eliminate most of the names as they were not anywhere near Tel el Saba. The only units near Tel el Saba were C Squadron, 9th Light Horse Regiment, 3rd Light Horse Machine Gun Squadron and the Auckland Mounted Rifles.

Now if the NZMB history is correct and the Hotchkiss Guns from the AMR scared them off, then there are only two units left which makes 6 deaths rather than 13 deaths.

The figure cited above - 13 - was first in Wilson then followed by Gullett and Darley, each citing the other until we have a circle of error with 13 being the unquestioned number. In the end we need to understand how Wilson initially came up with his 13 number. This reflection comes directly from the 3rd LHB War Diary and then entered into his 1919 commentary almost verbatim.

The above being so, I am still at a loss as to how he accounted for his figures. They were based upon something and recorded within the next couple days after the air raid. I am happy to accept his figure but not necessarily as the casualty figure for this one air raid.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

Just a quick note on LC Wilson.

From all my research I have found that Wilson was a highly respected lawyer with a passion for accuracy. This was no more demonstrated than when "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" was published. Wilson made it his life's final work to debunk TEL and his outrageous claims. In his notes to Bean, he systematically debunks even the most minute of claims to demonstrate that his Brigade, the 3rd LHB, was the first to enter Damascus. He began this campaign almost after the capture of Damascus when none of the English dailies gave credit to the Australians. He made quite a nuisance of himself over this - the motivation for him to publish in May 1919 his account of the 3rd LHB from 27 October 1917 to 4 October 1918. Prior to that he had Olden's account of taking the surrender of Damascus pushed under the noses of anyone who would listen.

Basically I have no reason to believe that Wilson's figure is incorrect. What troubles me is what event and whom was counted in this casualty figure.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

As for the day, we know that there was more than one air raid. The death of Maygar near divisional headquarters tells of that. Is Wilson counting this air raid too in his casualty figures?

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

Just re-examining Gullett's notes, he says:

"That evening one plane overhead ... 3 bombs along wadi ... very low ... enemy troops."

I am wondering if we are looking in the wrong place for the casualties. Could the missing numbers include Turks? That last comment of Gullett's is quite enigmatic - enemy troops. There was a purpose in mentioning them in his notes. However, the point is not developed.

Following this we have notes on the air raid that killed Maygar.

Is that note in the context of the air raid at Tel el Saba?

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

To contradict all the above, we have the account of 3067 Private JDA Thomas to the wife of DJ Morrison:

"I hear you are making enquiries regarding your husband death in Palestine. As it happened I was with him at the time he met his death. It was on the 31st of October last in the battle of Beersheba we attacked this town in the early morning of the formentioned date and it was evening time when your husband met his death just as it was getting dark, we were under shell fire about sundown and the longer we stoped in this place the Heavy the fire seem to get and then we got orders to move farther down the gully and we took cover behind a steep ridge and dismounted from our horses just after we did this a taube was sighted in the distance the name taube is a word that we call all the enemies airoplanes by, as this machine approached an came closer we could see that the pilot ment business and before we had time to move the observer droped three or four bombs at a very smart interval between them for the explosions was so near one an other that we could hardly tell one explosion from the other. The first bomb that landed fell in our troop and killed and wounded about seventeen men altogether say nothing to the horses that was lost as well. It was this bomb that killed your husband for it landed just along side of where your husband was standing and killed him instantly for he never moved after he fell to the ground I was standing at the time just near to him and I saw all that took place we went to his assistance straight away but found life to be missing unfortunately. After this happened the squadron drew up together again and continued the advance forward leaving three or four of us behind without horses I remained there looking after the wounded till they were all taken away to the field ambulance then I got a horse and proceeded to find our Regiment which I found about (1) oclock in the morning after I put the remainder of the night in an out post and morning dawned again I was sent back to the place where the bombing took place and took with me some spare horses to bring the lads forward that had to remain there all night on account of having no horses as I said previously. When I reached this place I noticed that the dead were all buried by the mates who were left behind during the night and with the assistance of some other lads as well I went to your husbands grave and had a look at same his name number and regiment he belonged to was all on the grave. "

This letter stands on its own.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

The thing to notice is that his comment about the casualties: "The first bomb that landed fell in our troop and killed and wounded about seventeen men" is similar to the wounded figure given in the LC Wilson account.

Is Thomas conflating two different sets of information? It might be so since the letter was written on September 13th 1918, nearly a year after the event.

Cheers

Bill

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I show both Heinrich brothers were hit on the 13th Oct 1917 not the 31st Oct 1917.

Richard was killed and George lost his leg due to his wounds.

But weather this was from an air attack or other is not known to me.

As to Pte Gates of the Wellington Regt, its history mentions no attack on it by aircraft, but the 2nd Sqn of the Wellington Regt under Maj Scott was committed to the fight at Tel el Saba in the afternoon and he was believed killed then.

Cheers

S.B

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Steve

G'day mate

You the mail man.

Good to see that you have a good handle on all these fellows.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Mates

If we reflect upon the information given in the 9th LHR War Diary we have this comment: "Leahy, 2815 Trooper CM; Morrison, 2939 Trooper DJ; and, wounding severely Linacre, Lieutenant FJ; and, Williams, Captain H; and, wounding nine Other Ranks. " That makes a total number of 13 casualties - 2 killed and 11 wounded.

It goes onto say: "Many casualties were also inflicted on New Zealanders and No 1 Sub - Section of 3rd Machine Gun Squadron who was close by."

Yet the NZMB History contradicts the idea that they received any casualties by stating: "Unfortunatly an Australian MG sect recieved their bombs, fourteen horse holders were killed or wounded and 36 horses.".

So if the figure includes only the 9th LHR and 3rd LHMGS, then where did the other men come from who made up the statistics?

The more and more I examine this story, the more I am inclined to believe that the Wilson account is a conflation of all air raid casualties for the day rather than that single event.

If we do some counting of other air raids we have:

2nd LHR:

Lt Swanston T/QM 2 LHR DOW 1-11-17,

Dvr Durham KIA 31-10-17,

Dvr Weeks KIA 31-10-17,

Dvr Martin Dow 1-11-17, and

Dvr Wooster DoW 2-11-17.

3rd LHR

Dvr Dearman att 1 LH MGS KIA 31-10-17, and

Dvr Litchfield KIA 31-10-17.

8th LHR

Lt Col Maygar

9th LHR

3255 Private James Lowry BODKIN;

2815 Private Claude Michael LEAHY; and

2939 Private Donald James MORRISON.

3rd LHMGS

1497 Private John Currie CUMMING 3 LH MGS;

499 Private William Irvine HUTCHINSON 3 LH MGS; and,

448 Private John Thomas STILL 3 LH MGS.

And now we have 14 deaths of which there are 2 officers and 12 other ranks.

I am now really confused with the statistical methodology employed in the count.

Cheers

Bill

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

You missed my little bit on the 1st LHR which had confirmed one solder killed in an airattack on the 1st LH Bde Transport.

As we found out the losses in the DMC Train are not those refered to by the 3rd LH Bde as they were not together when hit while all trains of the 1st LH Bde were, also these suffered more then the deaths and Dow's then on that list.

As we found there were many attacks that day on all formations of the DMC and Infantry Corps.

This question maybe directed to the airforce section of this site to say give us an idea of what Turkish/German Sqn's carried out this attack and how many were made during the day (if known).

I beleive there was a diary keep by a German arman during his time in Palestine so that maybe a start.

Cheers

S.B

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Steve

G'day mate

Missed it and plumb forgot it. That just adds one other rank to the mix making it 13 other ranks but two officers who didn't make the cut. It still doesn't add up.

I thought about removing the DOW's from the list but then it drops down by 4 other ranks and 2 officers making the death toll 11 other ranks. Still doesn't add up. Maybe they added in the DOW's who were reported as such in the morning of 1 November 1917.

I have looked at this puzzle from many different aspects and the numbers just don't work.

As for the air raids, we know there was one at divisional headquarters, one at Tel el Saba and plenty of fly overs without actually dropping bombs.

What I keep asking myself at this time is where were the British aircraft at this time?

If the Turks were sending out their aircraft then surely the Brits must have tumbled to the fact that the attacking force needed air cover. I am not sure why they were not ordered to assist.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Steve and Geoff

Here is a copy of the NZMRB WD of 31 October 1917.

Sorry about the quality of the scan but the original is even worse.

Cheers

Bill

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

What I also noticed and mentioned on the other site was the number of deaths is different in the unit history.

I think the unit history corrected the WD entery in some way as it goes into the death of Lt John's in detail telling how he died of his wounds and not killed as per the WD entery.

I surpose they didn't include the air attack in the unit history as it did no damage to them. Also these dairies all tend to include air attacks on them weather they inflicted losses or not.

I can only conclude that aircraft were still a new weapon in those days and there inclusion was to show there being under threat of these new weapons.

In later years when it came time to writting the unit history airattack was not seen as that important and many air attacks are only mentioned in passing or not at all.

Cheers

S.B

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Steve

I can't even match the casualty figures given in the WD.

Here's the Enzed list of KIA on 31 October 1917

13283 Captain Sidney Charles ASHTON AMR

13/2418 Trooper Cecil BLONG AMR

31065 Trooper Reginald Hadderton BURROW AMR

43170 Trooper Frederick DENNIS AMR

11/1801 Trooper Frederick Charles GATES WMR

17593 Trooper William Henry HAWKINS AMR

13/368 Lieutenant William Henwood JOHNS AMR

13/826 Driver Robert Frank LANGLEY NZFA

12811 Gunner Robert Roderick Crichton Corbett (Robert Roderick Crichton) McFARLAND NZFA

13/2573 Trooper Robert Thompson MILLER AMR

12887 Trooper Peter George WHITE AMR

Two officers and 9 other ranks. Even if you took out the NZFA, there still is a surplus of two.

Basically I am not making too much sense between the record and the Roll of Honour.

I am not too sure if the NZOWH is capable of suqaring the circle so they ducked the issue. The Johns death is the easy one to read about since it is described in detail in the NZOWH.

However Steve, I am not sure that your explanation suffices. Aircraft may have been a novelty but the deaths are a different issue.

The one thing that I do note is that there is little mention of large casualties in taking Tel el Saba from the AMR. Indeed, there is no mention of them from any source. It is the shelling - if it caused casualties amongst the Turks when the Brits shelled them, I can't see things being too different the other way around. But no mention of casualties here. With the 9th they were in a wadi so they heard the noise but suffered no casualties. That could have also been the case for the AMR.

The question that needs to be addressed is where all the AMR casualties occurred. Once we know that we can put our pet theories to bed.

Cheers

Bill

[stevenbecker]

Bill,

Agreed the NZ records don't show how these man were killed but that is also true of many records and we may never know for sure how the 6 AMR soldiers were killed.

We need someone who study's the NZ records to confirm there actions that day. As the availible records are not that detailed as even ours.

But its safe to conclude that the two officers were killed in the Saba fighting as Lt John's death/wounding I have given you on the other site from the Powles history of the NZMB. And the role of Capt Ashton that day and his possible death on the hill.

But what Sqn's or if they were horse holders the other soldier were is unknown to me but the known records all mention that this airattack did no damage or fail to mention any damage in men or horses, see the NZ MG Sqn's WD/unit hisory.

But your right that Turkish shell fire did kill horses during the afternoon but again no mention to confirm any deaths from that fire also?

It may need some NZ soldiers diary from the Auckland Regt or the NZ MG Sqn to fill in some of the details, I wonder if an inquiry to the NZ war museum would bring any resualts?

Mate the NZFA deaths on your list were in France not Palestine, a check of the graves for these men will give you the answer.

Cheers

S.B

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Steve

ooops

Yeah - I thought I had taken out all the French deaths but these two went through to the keeper.

It would be nice if Terry Kinlock could help out but I am not too sure what he is up to at the moment - if he is up to looking at these forums. He certainly isn't easy to contact but that being said, if anyone would know, he should have that information or know where to get it if it is available.

Terry, I hope you are reading this.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Steve

G'day mate

Just thought I would post the original of the Auckland Mounted Rifles War Diary entry for 31 October 1917.

The thing that becomes immediately obvious is that the AMR suffered no casualties as a consequence of the air raid.

The AMR KIA

13/283 Captain Sidney Charles ASHTON

13/2418 Trooper Cecil BLONG

31065 Trooper Reginald Hadderton BURROW

43170 Trooper Frederick DENNIS

17593 Trooper William Henry HAWKINS

13/2573 Trooper Robert Thompson MILLER

12887 Trooper Peter George WHITE

fits into the Wilson story like a glove.

I suspect that when bodies were being buried in the evening, the 7 AMR, 3 9th LHR and 3 3rd LHMGS were buried together as a job lot giving the figure of 13 KIA reported on by Wilson. This would account for Wilson erroneously reporting 13 KIA - as mentioned before, Wilson, a lawyer, was not prone to exaggeration nor did he tolerate imprecision. However, all the evidence pints to the fact that he just got it plain wrong.

Cheers

Bill

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I think you are correct here, he must had added these men in the false understanding that they were due to this air attack.

Its a pity that his coment went throw so many histories and other accounts both offical or other.

A quick check of the records would confirm the mistake but no one appears to have done that until we did stopping some eighty odd years of false losses.

Its amazing what a simple question can lead to.

I wonder how many more accounts have this problem, the search goes on.

Cheers

S.B

[TerryK]

According to the war diaries of the NZMR Bde, the AMR and the WMR, the New Zealanders lost eight men killed and 26 WIA on 31 October. Almost all of these casualties were in the AMR (seven of the fatalities and 21 WIA). The diaries do not describe the cause of death. Six horses were killed and 19 wounded, probably during the late-afternoon bombing raid.

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Terry

G'day mate and thanks for all your help.

I have been able to match up all the Enzed casualties from the other units on that day. The last piece of the puzzle related to the AMR which thankfully I was able to see the original record. The WMR lost one member and that was earlier than the AMR assault at Tel el Sabe and there were no losses from the CMR in terms of KIA.

Regardless of my disappointment as to the outcome, the evidence must land as it falls and regardless of sentiment, reality is the only answer.

The reason for my confusion thesis relates to the letter regarding Morrison - The KIA's were buried that evening - 31 October 1917 - and there was a great deal of confusion to this. The 9th LHR WD indicates that Enzeds became casualties from the air raid while the 3rd LHB WD is more assertive with a precise KIA figure. Steve raised this up and the two of us have been going at it for the last few months trying to get to the truth of the statement. Hence I am satisfied with the explanation that the figure quoted by Wilson and later Gullett is a composite of AIF and AMR KIA's. Nothing else explains it.

Cheers and once again, thanks for all your help.

Bill

[JimC]

G'day Gents,

 

Doing some research on a chap of the 2nd LH and where/what they were doing at the time. 1248 TPR John Kelsall, C Squadron, B Troop, was WIA on 3 Nov 1917 & DOW somewhere between Romani - Hill 960 - Beersheba the following day. NAA record states GSW knee & elbow, though later also state GSW abdomen. As details were often miss-labelled, I'm wondering if he was actually WIA in the air raids at this time? Wondering if anyone can verify air raid dates or know where he might've actually been WIA

 

Cheers

Jim

_____

Disregard... I think I've just answered my own question. C Sqn was detached to support the 7th Mounted Brigade advance on Ras el Nagb during the Battle of Tel el Khuweilfe where he was likely WIA & correctly labelled as a GSW & subsequently DOW

Edited 26 March by JimC

[stevenbecker]

Jim,

He was lost during the continuation of the 3rd Gaza battle, which also included the Beersheba and others

I record him as

KELSALL    John    1248    Pte    02 LHR    9R tos C Sqn B Troop 12-15 att WFF to hosp (dysentry) 7-16 rtn 10-16 WIA 3-11-17 knee & elbow shot in fighting at Ras el Nagh at Khuweilfeh DoW 4-11-17 died at 5 Mtd Bde FAmb buried near Tel el Khumeryah & Mikreh later grave lost NKG listed on Jerusalem Memorial Palestine

The fighting at Khuweilfeh is well known in the books, but basicly the attack by the British Infantry with attach 3rd Camel Bn, led to being trapped in front of the newly arrived 19th Ottoman Div, and the 1st ALH Bde was sent to help, but ran into trouble an suffered many losses.

The list of dead and wounded is long here and over the next few days

While the 2nd LHR was not heavely engaged I record these losses;

BRUCE    Robert Anthony    3196    Pte    02 LHR    25R to isol camp 3-17 to 1 LHTR 3-17 Tos C Sqn? 5-17 WIA 3-11-17 R/foot shot at Ras el Nagb near Khuweilfe to 1 LHTR 12-17 rtn shown C Sqn 1-18 WIA 11-4-18 L/shoulder shot reported 1 officer and 16 men wounded in Turkish attack (by 191st and 24th Turkish Regts) at Wadi Nimrin near Ghoraniyeh Bridgehead rtn 7-18 to hosp (malaria) 10-18 rtn 12-18 to hosp (malaria) 1-19 rtn 2-19 RTA MU malaria to hosp at sea (malaria) 3-19 (A Troop CSqn/4 LH (NRL) CMF 3 years) related Henry & Edward 2 LHR

WILSON    John Alexander    237    S/Smith    02 LHR    A Sqn to Mudros 11-15 (G) at WFF 1-16 to hosp (sick) 10-16 rtn 11-16 to T/Far/Cpl A Sqn (from clarkson) 11-16 to Far/Cpl 2-17 WIA 3-11-17 L/arm & side shot in fighting at Khuweilfeh rtn 1-18 to T/Far/Sgt A Sqn (from clarkson) 1-18 to Far/Sgt (from clarkson) 4-18 RTA 1914 leave

STANLEY    Wilfred Percible    2484    Pte    02 LHR    17R to 1 LHTR 6-16 Tos A Sqn 8-16 to hosp (DAH) 12-16 rtn 2-17 qual hotchkiss 8-17 WIA 3-11-17 L/arm & thigh shot reported 7 wounded and 1 DoW in fighting at Ras el Nagh and Khuweilfeh RTA wounded 

He appears to be the one DoW but the 7 wounded are not confirmed?
 

Edited 26 March by stevenbecker