Ayrshire Yeomanry

[James Brown]

Hi

Does any one have a map showing the positions of trenches G11 and G11A at Cape Helles. I am trying to find out some information about the Ayrshire Yeomanry's attack on these positions on 15th November 1915. It seems that part of the captured trenches were named after a street in Ayr......."Carrick Street".

I have the OHMaps Other Theatres CD Rom, but I am unable to pinpoint this position......there are only a few maps showing Gallipoli trench positions in th Helles sector.

If anyone wants a pic of any other trench position from the CD I am at your service.

James Brown

[James Brown]

Hi

Apologies I found a position for G11 but cant find G11A.

Could someone correct me if I am wrong about G11.

Thanks

James

[PPCLI]

Hi James,

I'm not sure about your position of G11, but I can give you a definite position for G11a.

Hope this helps,

Stuart

[PPCLI]

James,

Looking at a map of the trench system in Thompson's "52nd Lowland Division", it looks to me that G.11 is running on a north-south axis on the line on your map just to the immediate left of the 'C' of Church St. towards East Krithia Nullah (however, I'm quite prepared to be told that I've read the map wrong - it's not the easiest one to follow).

However, my reading suggests that the Ayrshire Yeomanry were not involved with the G.11 attack, but instead were supporting the 1/7th Royal Scots attacking further to the west at H.11a. This trench is on the left side of West Krithia Nullah, running parallel to it (further north than G.11a).

The only Ayrshire Yeomanry soldier named in Thompson's book as taking part in this operation is Lieut. J.A. Neilson, 1/1st AY. The Turks had recaptured Roseberry Street (the new name for H.11a), but bombers of the Yeomanry and the 1/7th RS (led by Lieut. J.A. Greenshields) "drove them out with bayonet and grenade."

As for G.11a, it was the scene of fighting on the 18/19th Dec and 29/30th Dec. On the former occasion the 1/5th HLI captured about 30 yards of it, then on the 29th (as part of the diversionary tactics to confuse the Turks about the evacuation) the 5th RSF, aided by grenade teams from the 1/4th RSF and 1/4th and 1/5th KOSB, captured the rest. One of the men on my village memorial, Pte. Norman McMurray, 1636, 1/5th KOSB. The following paragraphs are taken from the official history of the 1/5th KOSB on the action of the 29th Dec:

"When the mine under G11a was exploded the party rushed through the opening and into the enemy trench, taking possession.

We were now put to dig a new communication trench, and on the counter-attack by the Turks we manned the parapets and assisted in repelling their attack.

Near us our bombing detachment, also attached to the Fusiliers, did magnificent service. Lance-Corpl. McMurray was shot through the head by a sniper whilst throwing a continuous series of bombs during a strong Turkish counter-attack. He was ably seconded by Pte. McGuffie, who later won the V.C. in France."

Norman is commemorated on a special memorial in Redoubt Cemetery, Helles, Turkey.

Hope this is of interest,

Stuart

[James Brown]

Hi Stuart

Although it doesnt say much, in Ray Westlakes book British Regiments at Gallipoli, he states that on the 15th of August the 1/1st Ayrshire Yeomanry took part in successful attack on the two trenches.

Part of the captured trench system was renamed "Carrick Street". An old established street in Ayr. Did Officers who had taken part in the capture of trench system's rename them?

That's the only reference I have access to, or have seen.

When they went into the firing line (Hope Street) on the 6th November until relieved 16th Nov, they had 8 casualties. Only 1 on the 15th (as Died SDGW) and 3 on the 16th (2 KIA, 1 Died SDGW). In relation to other attacks at the time these figures do seem small. Quite possible they were only in support.

Thanks for your help in pointing out the position of G11a. I have taken note.

Thanks

James

[PPCLI]

Hi Stuart

Although it doesnt say much, in Ray Westlakes book British Regiments at Gallipoli, he states that on the 15th of August the 1/1st Ayrshire Yeomanry took part in successful attack on the two trenches.

In relation to other attacks at the time these figures do seem small. Quite possible they were only in support.

Hi James,

From reading through various sections of the book, I would say that the 1/1st Ayrshire Yeomanry were more than just support. The term used was 'reinforced' - p.179 "....the attack on the left (H.11a) by the Royal AScots, Lt.-Col. W.C. Peebles, reinforced by Ayrshire Yeomanry."

Previously the author mentioned the 'welcome reinforcement from the Lowland Mounted Brigade' in the middle of October (p.159); the Ayrshire, Lanarkshire and City of Glasgow Yeomanry "were landed on the peninsula, and distributed through the three infantry brigades." So, it is likely that the Ayrshire Yeomanry who took part in the attack were attached to the 1/7th Royal Scots - from my interpretation they would have been part of the assault team, rather than just playing a supporting role.

The author describes the reinforcemnets (p.159/160) - "These yeomen, thorough going sportsmen as they were, set to work at once to learn their jobs as infantrymen carrying on trench warfare. They were big, lusty men, and it was good to see them digging and filling sandbags, before the diseases of the place began to affect them. This reinforcement amounted to 55 officers and 1070 other ranks, so that, in addition to the health and strength of its men, it was of great value for its numbers alone.....The average effective rifle strength for a brigade of the Division in the trenches at this time was less than that of a normal battalion."

If you would like to read the account of the attack, PM me with your email address and I will sort out jpegs of the relevant pages, plus map (about 8 pages) - I don't want to post them here - the image quality suffers when reducing below 200kb and it will use up a lot of Chris' bandwith. Let me know.

Stuart

[James Brown]

Thanks again Stuart for the quick reply, and the extra information. Just the sort of stuff I've been looking for.

I will PM you.

James

[The Plummed Goose]

Dear James,

Attached a detail of a map which can be found in Stephen Chambers' "Gully Ravine".

It shows G11 but does not specify G11a.

If you send me your email address I can send you the entire map ...

cheers

eric

[James Brown]

A belated Thanks Stuart and Eric to finish the post.

Eric I recieved the map. Thank you.

Stuart I recieved the 4 pages numbered 177 to 180. Thank You. Was there another four?

James

[PPCLI]

Stuart I recieved the 4 pages numbered 177 to 180. Thank You. Was there another four?

Yes, there was supposed to be I have sent them again.

Eric's map confirms the direction of the trench I suggested in an earlier post - "G.11 is running on a north-south axis on the line on your map just to the immediate left of the 'C' of Church St. towards East Krithia Nullah", where it links up with G.11a (all shown as G.11 on Eric's map.

Also, (you will probably know) the war diary covering the period Sep-Dec 1915 is at the NA under:

WO 95/4321: 1/1 Lowland Mounted Brigade: 1/1 Ayrshire Yeomanry.

Stuart

[James Brown]

Hi Stuart

Recieved the other 4 Pages today. Thank You.

Trench G11a, I would now say has been pinpointed, courtesy of yourself and Eric.

James

Edited 8 September , 2005 by James Brown