Brodie helmet colour

[T8HANTS]

Hi All

Does any Pal know what percentage of British steel helmets would have been in grey paint for the first day of the Somme battle, if any?

If grey, was it dark or mid Admiralty grey, or what other colour were the helmets painted in for the Somme?

Thanks.

[Paul Johnson]

Were any in Grey?

I don't claim to be an expert on equipment of the day but I'm fairly certain that they were not Grey. I'd like to know, though.

Sorry if this doesn't answer your question, but I'm sure someone will enlighten us both.

Regards

PAUL J

[wainfleet]

In 25 years of collecting I've never seen the first pattern helmet (w first patt liner and strap) in grey. I have seen several "last pattern" (ie rim-edge, doughnut liner pad) examples in battleship grey, painted over the sand/sawdust camouflage.

The classic 1st patt. helmet colour is apple-green or, less commonly, duck-egg blue. Although helmets began to be issued late in 1915, most units weren't fully equipped with them until Spring 1916, so it's probably a fair assumption that many men, perhaps the majority, went over on 1 July 1916 wearing helmets this colour. However, the numerous helmet covers evident in photos of that date indicate an awareness of the need to "quieten down" the paint surface, and it's reasonable to assume that many units would already have overpainted in a duller shade. I've seen several examples painted a darker green, sometimes with the apple-green colour still visible inside the helmet.

Henry Williamson, who seems to have had very vivid recall, describes in some detail in his semi-autobiog "The Golden Virgin" the equipment (14 patt - the "makeshift leather equipment") and "battle patches" worn by his unit on 1 July, and refers to "steel helmets painted khaki". If they'd been green or blue, presumably he would have said so. [Edit: HW didn't use the phrase "battle patches" - the inverted commas are mine. But I seem to recall reading "each man's helmet was marked with a divisional sign". Now where have I put that book?!]

It's also reasonable to assume that some helmets with 2nd patt liner were also in use by 1 July, although they are very seldom evident in photos of that date. Presumably virtually all front line troops had already been issued with the 1st patt. Photographic evidence shows that the 2nd patt liner (recognisable from its one-piece chinstrap) seems to have crept in on a similar timescale to the box respirator, ie roughly from Aug-Sept 1916.

[Joe Sweeney]

I have a first pattern helmet with original liner and chinstrap that started life with the Duck-egg blue color Wainfleet refers to. It is light blueish grey in color and not like ship (admiralty grey). It has been over painted with a much darker khaki green (not like most of the MKI helmet finishes) and no sand.

I would think that any helmets in the blue grey were long gone by 1 July and almost all were still in Apple green (I have a first pattern helmet in this color and it has only every had the single painting) or over painted in the darker khaki green (which some MKI can be found).

If sand was applied I doubt there would have been many and even fewer with factory applied sand finishes. What might have been encountered is depot applied sanding which are usually present a much thicker and sloppier finish than the factory finished helmets.

Joe Sweeney

[Vincent Petty]

Forgive me if this is elementary, but when yall refer to the "sand" used to create the anti-reflective finish, are you actually refering to sand, or is that just a descriptive reference to the texture of the finish? Just a little clarification as the texture is achieved with sawdust.

[Paul Johnson]

Vincent,

I think you'll find it refers to the colour not the texture.

Regards

PAUL J

[Joe Sweeney]

Vincent,

I'm referring to the use of sand. Sand was used in the coating of British MKI helmets to give a non reflective surface.

Use of sawdust was an American manufacturing process.

Joe Sweeney

[Desmond7]

See here

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...DUTF-8%26sa%3DN

and ....

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...928&hl=painting

Edited 4 August , 2005 by Desmond7

[Vincent Petty]

Thanks Joe, for the clarification. All of my experiences are with the American helmet, and for some reason a lot of Mk1 helmets have not crossed through my hands. I just wanted to get what yall were talking about into context, as a lot of folks will refer to the "sand" texture or the sand in the paint of the M1917 helmet.

I think you'll find it refers to the colour not the texture.

Paul I am refering to the sawdust added (and according to Joe, the sand added applied to the Mk1) to the helmet as its being painted which was intended to create a rough "anti-reflective" surface. So, not the color, but the texture/finish.

[T8HANTS]

Hi all

Thank you all for the info, very much appreciated.

One last question, if the oilcloth,net, and felt pad, was the 2nd pattern liner, what did the 1st pattern look like?

Could anybody post a picture, or was it just a change in chin strap detail, again any chance of a pic', if it was.

Gareth

[wainfleet]

Hi Gareth, sorry I don't have a digicam or would post pic, but to describe the first patt liner: it is like a skullcap, with six oilcloth tongues meeting in the middle rather like an Adrian helmet liner. The liner is riveted directly to the helmet and thus does not move around like the second patt. It has the same rubber tube spacers on the outside as the second patt. The strap is in two pieces and instead of passing through the strap guides as on the second patt, is attached directly to them. It fastens with a simple pronged buckle. The strap guides are narrower than on later helmet shells. You'll probably know one if you see it.

It's not unknown to see first patt liners used with second patt chinstraps, though obviously you do not see this the other way round as without a strap going through to the top of the helmet there would be no way to attach the second patt liner.

[john in minnesota]

Here are a 2 pictures of my 1st pattern Brodie with a camoflage splotch pattern SAND finish applied on top of the apple green. The underside is the original apple green color but has darkened over time:

[john in minnesota]

Since the topic began with a question about grey helmets, I thought I might add a photo of a Canadian Brodie. It has been my observation that "battleship grey" helmets are most often from the Canadian 3rd division - I have 5 other such unit painted examples in this color...

John

[wainfleet]

Nice pictures John, thanks for sharing them with us.

BTW Gareth, I am just curious - any particular reason why are you keen to know the correct helmet colour for 1 July?

Ted

[T8HANTS]

Hi Ted

A fair question, I want to know the colour because I am one of those awful re enactors, and as I hope to be at Serre and Redan Ridge next year, in kit to take part in the commemorations, I want to get the colour of the helmet correct. The little bit of original paint on mine looks exactly like the side view shot of John's. However mine was rescued from the front porch of a bungalow where it had been used as a flower basket. I had to weld up the four chain holes and the small rust hole that had developed over the years. and there is no paint what so ever on the inside.

John, thanks for the pictures. I am begining to think that mine should have a 1st pattern liner, with the chin strap loops being 23mm or 7/8th inside.

Thanks once again Gareth

[Joe Sweeney]

John,

Nice helmets.

Joe

[wainfleet]

Thanks for the explanation, Gareth. I agree; you might as well get it right. So I guess it will be apple-green or dark khaki green then? The latter might be easier to achieve in a convincing shade.

[Paul Johnson]

Vincent,

Sorry. Thought you were refering to the colour. I've learnt a lot of stuff too about the Brodie, that's why I love this Forum so much!

Regards

PAUL JOHNSON

[corkhead100]

Hi Gareth, sorry I don't have a digicam or would post pic, but to describe the first patt liner: it is like a skullcap, with six oilcloth tongues meeting in the middle rather like an Adrian helmet liner. The liner is riveted directly to the helmet and thus does not move around like the second patt. It has the same rubber tube spacers on the outside as the second patt. The strap is in two pieces and instead of passing through the strap guides as on the second patt, is attached directly to them. It fastens with a simple pronged buckle. The strap guides are narrower than on later helmet shells. You'll probably know one if you see it.

It's not unknown to see first patt liners used with second patt chinstraps, though obviously you do not see this the other way round as without a strap going through to the top of the helmet there would be no way to attach the second patt liner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Gareth,

There is a type A rimless helmet (complete with bullet hole)

on ebay at the moment, the photos are quite good. I have MK1 helmets in dark green

and also Khaki but almost all have the same original colour under the brim even the

grit finished M17 or Doughboy.

I have a photo listed as MK1 colour at militaryhelmetcollectorsclub · THE HELMET FORUM

By the way, I went to the Gallipoli exhibition at Newport today,..... brilliant.

Cheers nipper.

[Krithia]

By the way, I went to the Gallipoli exhibition at Newport  today,..... brilliant.

Cheers nipper.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How long is the exhibition on for, first I have heard of it. What is on display ?

cheers, Krithia

[Vincent Petty]

Ummmm yeah... ya ever have one of those days? I am cleaning out my shed and getting rid of a few things, when I come across a helmet in a box. I have no idea where it came from, but some how it is in my shed.

Anyway, from the looks of it and after reading the posts on this thread, I suspect that it is an early British helmet. So how can I tell? What should I look for on the shell?

The paint that is on it, isnt the original paint -- I know that. Its been painted over a number of times and the outside is a lighter shad of OD green while the inside and under brim is painted silver... why oh why... There is no texture (ie sawdust/sand)

There are four holes that have been punched into the crown -- front right and left, and back right and left of the crown... why?

There is no rim around the edge of the brim, such as on the US M1917 helmet. Under the brim is stamped "HS x4x" (the "x"'s are either the number 1 or the letters I or L, its hard to tell because of the many coats of paint). The numbering/lettering is nearly 1/2 inch. The brim of the helmet is widest at the sides and narrow at the front and back -- brim width at the side is 1 3/4 inch, while brim width at the front is 1 1/2 inch. The width of the helmet over all is 11 1/2 inches and the length front to back is 12 1/4 inches.

The bails are not original to the helmet -- they look like they are repairs. Split rivets hold them on and the heads are 1/4 inch. Like I said, these are not original to the helmet.

If this is infact a period helmet I'd like to restore it for use. I've restored a number of US M1917 helmets, so how should I go about restoring this helmet.

[T8HANTS]

Hi Kritha & Corkhead

Thank you for the kind comment on the exhibition. Kritha I am afraid it is quite small so if you are not local I could not recommend that you travel too far to see it.

Having said that, the IW Record Office, does hold the original drafts and a considerable amount of correspondence concerning the writing of the official History of the Gallipoli Campaign, by Aspinal-Oglander who was an Islander. Historians travel from all over the world to research that!!

Vincent as you will have gathered from the above I am not a helmet expert. I would guess that the bails might have been changed to accommodate a wider chin strap, split/bifurcated rivets are original on all my WW1 helmets even the relics, as for the holes if they were not to hang it as a flower basket like mine I would guess to attach a cover, but I am probably wrong on all counts

Gareth

[yellow]

I can say for certain battle ship grey was used in WW1. During the desert campaign the advance on Kut, the 14 Hussars were ordered by their commanding officer to paint all their metal equipment grey. How do I know? Well my great uncle was there and told me the story.

Much to the annoyance of the regiment another commanding officer told the men later to remove all the paint and polish the lot up. The regiment was cursing!

Hope you dont mind me saying ......but........"better by far, a 14th Hussar"

Steve.

[Joe Sweeney]

Vincent,

Your helmet sounds like a British Rimless (War Office Pattern) helmet manufactured between Sept 1915 and July 1916. It was manufactured by Hadfields Ltd. That is the HS mark. Since Hadfields only started manufacture in Jan 1916 then yours is after Jan. 1916.The mark shows the helmet shell manufacturer and the lot number of the steel i.e. HS number number number.

No sand was used until mid 1916 on these helmets. Sand was added as a result of the shiney nature of the surface. This is the reason why covers were also introduced.

Are you sure the bails are not original? Split rivets are the norm in British helmets. (Some early helmets and Officers private purcahesed did use the machine rivets like the Americans).

Steve,

Did the 14th Hussars have steel pots on the March to KUT? Chances are they did not.

Joe Sweeney

[Vincent Petty]

Thanks Joe for the information. Can you tell me of a good reference work that I should acquire on the British and American helmets?

On the bails, one or both I am certain are replacements. One of the bails and the metal tab is not the same size as the other, and the split rivet was just put in and opened, with out trimming the extra length of the rivet pin. Is the 1/4 inch size of the head correct for this model?

Are the four holes in the crown from production, or placed at a later time? I can fill them in if necessary. Since I am going to do the work, which pattern liner should I install? I know of vendors for the later style, but not the earlier, and which paint -- I wouldnt know how to describe "apple green."

Thanks for the help again.