Mass Grave uncovered?

[Drummy]

I also would be interested to hear more of the evidence to substantiate the claims of large numbers of soldiers buried there. I find it more likely that if remains do remain there it would be only a small number and not up in the hundreds, I say that because I would be inclined to think that the IWGC would have known of the graves through surviving soldiers of that battle, post war clear ups/grave searches, and may be military records made (unit war diairies, reports etc). However when you look at the number of remains found in a small area by the 'Diggers' I dont think we can completely discount the possibility at this stage.

Terry, what more do you know of the post war RM graves and the current situation. Are these protected by the MOD?

[Terry Denham]

The graves in Greece date from 1929 and are not in the care of CWGC but of the MoD. They are in a local cemetery - I don't have the article to hand & so cannot quote numbers or the exact location. The Marines died in a gun turret explosion.

The local Greek authorities (according to the newspaper) were claiming £33000 for past maintenance. They claimed that they had looked after the graves not the British.

They seemed to be threatening to remove the bodies and place them elsewhere - a common custom in Greece after a few years of burial.

The MoD denied this and I have to say that the one headstone shown in the paper looked brand new (Post WW2 Non-World War Pattern with clipped corners) and seemed to be made of Bocaccio Limestone like new CWGC stones (I believe CWGC supply these stones to MoD on contract as the style is identical to war grave headstones minus the top corners). This suggests that MoD have recently been active in the cemetery.

CWGC are aware of this situation as, if the bodies have to be moved, they would accept them at their cemetery at Phaleron.

It was probably some local posturing in an attempt to get cash for the cemetery - who knows. Anyway, the MoD is on the case.

[Drummy]

Cheers for the interesting reply Terry, I certainly hope the marine's are reinterred in a CWGC cemetery. It would be a more fitting for them to be beside fellow British servicemen in an immaculate CWGC site than in a local churchyard. Never been keen on the idea of isolated graves / small groups of graves in foriegn countries, I feel (unless N.O.K wished otherwise) all war/service graves should have been concentrated into large war cemeteries, anyhow I digress!! Thanks Neil.

[Drummy]

Found this on the Times site:

Greece to dig up British graves

By Michael Evans, Defence Editor and John Carr in Athens

A GREEK town has threatened to destroy the remains of 16 British servicemen buried at a cemetery since 1929 unless Britain pays £35,000 for their exhumation and reburial.

The servicemen were Royal Marines and Royal Navy personnel killed after an explosion in the turret of a warship during a military exercise in July 1929.

The 14 Royal Marines and two Royal Navy sailors were buried in a graveyard at Nea Ionia, a hillside suburb of the port of Volos in eastern Greece. Three other Britons were also buried there: a Royal Marine gunner and a leading seaman who died in 1891, and an able seaman killed in 1902.

A memorial stone in honour of the Royal Marines was placed at the cemetery.

According to reports from the Greek town, the Mayor of Volos has threatened to destroy the remains of the servicemen unless Britain pays for their reburial at another site. The municipal council plans to turn the cemetery into a park and has asked relatives of the 5,000 people buried there pay exhumation fees.

Odysseas Karavas, the head of the cemetery, said that letters had been sent to the British Embassy in Athens and the Ministry of Defence in London, demanding payment.He said: “If they don’t reply by the end of August I’m obliged by law to exhume the bodies with a Christian ritual and then throw them out.”

Most burials in Greece — with its rocky terrain, space is at a premium — last for about five years, after which the bones are dug up and placed in ossuaries in the cemetery corner. Foreigners buried according to non-Orthodox rites, however, are generally left to rest in peace.

Defence Ministry sources confirmed that negotiations had reached a sensitive stage. There is a proposal to save the servicemen’s remains which involves the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

Normally the Commission is responsible only for the graves of those who died in combat from the two world wars, covering two periods: from 1914 to 1921, and from 1939 to 1947. The additional years take into account those wounded who died later.

But a spokesman for the Commission said that it was able to take responsibility for other cemeteries close to official war graves. The plan was to exhume the remains of the 19 servicemen and rebury them at a Commonwealth war grave at Phaleron, a few miles southeast of Athens.

The MoD said that the 8ft Volos memorial stone would be moved to the Royal Marines museum at Eastney in Hampshire.

[ianw]

At in excess of £2000 per exhumation and reburial, one can only conclude that rampant profiteering is going on. I wonder if local people are being asked for similar amounts of money ?

[auchonvillerssomme]

I just thought I would throw this up, compare the negativity then to the positivity now.

Mick

[Auimfo]

Makes for interesting reading Mick.

Not that anyone can blame posters for their sceptical viewpoint. At that time, Lambis' evidence was pretty sketchy and his claims seemed pretty fanciful. Just goes to show that if you take the bull by the horns and persist long enough, eventually someone will have to take notice of you.

Now, with the evidence shown to be irrefutable, Lambis is to be commended on his determination.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Drummy]

I agree, from my initial reservation in 2003 I must say well done to all concerned in researching and uncovering this burial site, which has led to such a positive development to recover, seek to identify and re bury the remains in a new CWGC site.

Re the RN graves at Volos, Greece threatened with destruction in 2003 does anyone know if the 19 graves still exist, have the remains been transferred to the CWGC Phaleron cemetery?

Thanks

Neil.

[apwright]

Re the RN graves at Volos, Greece threatened with destruction in 2003 does anyone know if the 19 graves still exist, have the remains been transferred to the CWGC Phaleron cemetery?

Volos Cemetery last Thursday - all present and correct.

Adrian

[Kevin Lynott]

I was reading through the archive records of Lt John Charles BOWDEN of the 59th Bn who was KIA on the 19th July 1916.

His file is under the reference number B2455 and on page 59 of the record the following passage appears in correspondence dated 16th September 1919.

"..........Lieutenant Bowden was reported killed in action on 19/7/16. The report which was received from the Prisoner of War Care Department, Berlin, states that Lieutenant Bowden was killed near Fromelles. His paybook and identity disc were recovered, but the exact location of the grave was not known. It is thought, however that Lieutenant Bowden was buried in one of the five large collective British graves near Pheasant Wood, near Fromelles, or in the collective grave in the military grave at Fournes ............."

So it would appear that in September 1919 the Australian authorities were aware of five large collective British graves. If this was the case shouldn't it have prompted some sort of action to try and find the five large collective graves during the battlefield clearances which were still going on in 1919? Or was a search done but no trace was found at that time? Does anyone on the Forum know?

Regards

Kevin

[phil@basildon]

It is quite likely that the exact site was unknown. If the grave had been discovered in 1919 would it have been possible to identify any individual soldier? I think not except possibly one or two individuals. At least there is a greater chance of identification with modern forensic techniques.

[Kevin Lynott]

Re Post 36

PhilW

You're right Phil, as the report says the Germans advised the IRC that they had removed the id discs and paybooks, but who knows what little bit of artefact may have been found in 1919-20 on a body which could have identified him them, but since then until their recovery the wet soil has destroyed over the intervening 92 years.

The report of the five collective graves is couched in in terms of "oh you know, the five mass graves at Fromelles" as if it was common knowledge.

Regards

Kevin

[roel22]

Baker's Pals may be interested in the following story which appeared in the Australian newspaper today about a mass grave near Fromelles.

The link will take you to the report of it on the Anzac Research forum.

http://com2.akheva.com/banzacresearch.fmainchat.t50

Can anybody help me to get the article in this -broken- link?

Thanks in advance,

Roel

[Auimfo]

As I know it, BOWDEN's file was the key found by Lambis Englezos that directly lead to his discovering the exact location of the graves.

After the war, a Major ALLEN of the Australian War Graves Service searched the Fromelles area including Pheasant Wood. They were clearly aware of supposed graves in the vicinity of Pheasant Wood and there is documentary proof of this at the National Archives of Australia. In a later Court of Enquiry there are quite a number of references to the mass graves at Pheasant Wood but I think the most telling document in this file is one written by ALLEN in 1920 to the Officer in Charge of the Australian War Graves Service and states,

"Cannot get a satisfactory response from GRU or D.G.R., etc re the removal of collective graves before Pheasant Wood." (my highlighting)

Unfortunately Major ALLEN failed to locate the graves and the NAA file hints at possible later confusion between Pheasant Wood and Fournes (where mass graves from Fromelles were discovered and exhumed). It seems that locals indicated graves to ALLEN but he discovered that a cross had been taken and seemingly placed at Fournes and thus believed the Germans had moved the bodies to that location.

You can find the NAA file here: http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.as...mp;I=1&SE=1

It's very long at 790 pages, covering a few different things about the conduct of the Australian War Graves Service but makes for absolutely fascinating reading. The part regarding Pheasant Wood is among the documents related to the search for the body of Lt BURNS and can be found somewhere around page 544.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[roel22]

Thanks, Tim! I've got some reading to do...

[Keith Miller]

Also look at pages 752, 759 and 760.

[Auimfo]

There are a couple of sets of duplicates in the file so it's not actually 790 pages long but I'd really recommend reading all of it. It's not all relevant to the Fromelles investigation but you'll be absolutely flabbergasted at the allegations of disgraceful behaviour and shoddy work practices. It will make you wonder how any work ever got done and how many shortcuts were taken that resulted in incorrect burials etc. Trust me when I say I was shaking my head in disbelief while I read it.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[roel22]

It's a great source of information, that's for sure.

Roel

[Kevin Lynott]

Re Posts 39 and 43

TimL, thanks for the link, its quite shocking reading, just shows how poor leadership can infect a whole unit or organisation.

With any information this is probably just the tip of the iceberg and one can only imagine that the sloppy attitude resulted in opportunities to make recovers being lost.

Kevin

[ianw]

One wonders just how much pressure the clearance teams were under from on high to get the job done - cost would have been a major consideration and of course these were very unpleasant devastated regions in which to live and work. Would not at least some of the men involved have been heartily sick of the war and just wanting to get home. Would not their reverence for the dead have been greatly reduced by having lived cheek by jowl with them for years. Given the contemporary nature of the cemeteries into which they were taking the remains, some may have been tempted to regard the existing mass graves as a good a place as any for them to remain.

We look at things through the rose-tinted glasses of pleasant trips to the Western Front and a recovered landscape dotted with wonderful "country garden" cemeteries. This is a world away from the years immediately after the Great War.

[Seadog]

Good point Ian, I know that many members may have already seen this but I think that it bears repeating. This is a "body density" map of the area around High Wood on the Somme. The figures in blue indicate the numbers of bodies/burials discovered and removed to CWGC War Cemeteries. The figures begger belief and this is just a small part of the Western Front.

The red arrow indicates a note on my Flickr photoset which is here:

Click:

Norman

[phil@basildon]

Norman, looking at your map it appears that no bodies were recovered from the area above were you placed the arrow. This seems highly unusual as over 800 were recovered from the adjacent square.

[Seadog]

Well spotted Phil, this has lead to the rumour that High Wood was never cleared of the fallen. There will be other members on the forum who have more knowledge than I do about that story. It is worth bearing in mind that at the time this map was produced this area would not resemble a wood at all, just a mass of shattered trees and young new growth

Norman

[phil@basildon]

Could the area have been deemed to dangerous to enter due to unexploded ordinance or contamination? I have heard that there is an area in France that holds the remains of some WW2 German soldiers were it is simply too dangerous to attempt recovery.

[dfaulder]

>><< a "body density" map of the area around High Wood on the Somme. The figures in blue indicate the numbers of bodies/burials discovered and removed to CWGC War Cemeteries.>><<

Norman

I am now confused; I had previously believed that body density maps were not of discovered bodies/burials, but where bodies were registered as buried (during the war) according to DGRE records and therefore used by Labour companies to indicate the rough scale of number of bodies that they should be looking for when doing the clearances. Not every body that was registered would be discovered and reburied and presumably some of those found were not previously registered.

David