Chris P Posted 31 July , 2005 Share Posted 31 July , 2005 I've just managed to obtain a set of early web, all dated 1911 or earlier. But it's missing the Water bottle cradle. Silly question time! Does anyone have an early one they would sell / swap / barter/ what have you.......I'm prepared to be generous! Also, can anyone tell me when the entrenching tool / cover, etc was first issued.....was it as early as the rest of the set? And, why are there so many frogs around without the strap for the helve carrier? Thanks! Chris P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 31 July , 2005 Share Posted 31 July , 2005 Chris P, Sorry no WBC. The P08 design was approved with LoC §14288 “Web equipment, pattern 1908”, 31 January 1908. It was introduced into service in the Army Circular published in October 1908. P08 had no provision for an intrenching tool. The “Carrier, intrenching tool, head” was approved with LoC §14795, 17 May 1909, 24 Aug 1909, and 8 Oct 1909. It was introduced into service in the Army Circular published in November 1909. The “Implement, intrenching, pattern 1908, Head” and “Implement, intrenching, pattern, Helve with ferrule” was approved with LoC §14796, 22 October 1908, 23 July 1909, and 8 October 1909. It was introduced into service in the Army Circular published in November 1909. I think that the frog is minus the strap because the intrenching tool was declared obsolete shortly after the war. I believe I have instructions somwhere saying to modify the frog, but at the moment can't find them and I'm not that confident in my memory to say 100% for certain. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 31 July , 2005 Share Posted 31 July , 2005 What was the difference between the 38 cradle and the 08? regards. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 31 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 31 July , 2005 Thankyou Joe. All very useful as usual....... (except the bit about not having a cradle) . I shall keep looking....... The set I have has recently surfaced in France, with the effects of a French Officer, & has undoubtedly been together since the war. I note the broad arrow with a number 10 under on all pieces. I see these marks all the time, but have never been quite clear on where they originate.......were they issuing depot marks? Chris P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 31 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 31 July , 2005 Tom; The 37 pattern as its commonly called, was primarily made out of 1" web, with 1" buckles to attach to the narrower straps of the 37 pattern braces........as opposed to the 2" braces of the p08.......This is the easiest way to tell them apart. Of course, it's not quite that simple overall........There were many other patterns of WBC including 1919 naval pattern, 1925? Raf , 1937? raf, 1940 mounted pattern, amongst others, all with varying cradles........I'm sure others can elaborate more! Chris P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 31 July , 2005 Share Posted 31 July , 2005 Chris P, I have not found the smoking gun source on what all the codes assiociated with the Broad arrow mean. I have a lot of conjecture. P08 web fell under the responsibility of the QMG 9 branch of the Directorate of Equipment and Ordnance Stores (D.E.O.S). This branch was better known as QMG "Stores". Prior to the War all articles were inspected and accepted at destination (Woolwhich Dockyard). I believe the 10 is an inspector's code. Prior to war the inspection branch for all stores only had 347 personnel, this would expand to 5700 inspectors. As the war progressed inspection was decentralized (Woolwhich got swamped very fast) into commercial centers, depots and viewers were posted at manufacturing facilities. All codes I believe eventually identify the viewer who accepted the items. MT, The differences are many--width of web and buckles etc. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 31 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 31 July , 2005 Joe........ This would seem to suggest the 'sets' of webbing were put together at Woolwich, or other depots then, to find a set with all the same number? I have another WW1 set which came from out of the woodwork, & this also has matching numbers (mostly). Moreover, I have several more complete WW2 sets where the same practice obviously exsisted. I had always assumed from this, that the numbers were added once the sets had been assembled. I could not imagine all the separate pieces arriving at Regimental depots and ending up with the same numbers. Whilst on the subject.........On WW1 clothing, I often see the stamp of a row of numbers, over W arrow D, over a single letter. Can one figure out the date from the letter? Similar stamps are found in WW2 clothing, but with the single letter on top.......This does date WW2 items, as they follow a sequence........but it doesn't seem to work for WW1 ........Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 31 July , 2005 Share Posted 31 July , 2005 Chris, The Web was almost certainly stamped as pieces and not sets. Pre-war stamping you may be dealing with the one or two veiwers. Once war began I have dated P08 that has numbers in the several hundreds, a quick look at my P08 and I have nu,mbesr up to 357, so I really doubt that it refers to depot but may refer to an inspection group. For clothing there is a time flow to markings and the inspection department of the RACD was much more stringently controlled by the DEOS. Prior to the War there were two types of markings. RACF marks are W/I\D with a letter code underneath corresponding to a viewer at the RACF. Contracted Clothing was a W/I\D a number underneath then the date under that. Pre-war Clothing was only viewed at the Depot at Pimlico and I have a bit of evidence that the number and date corresponded to month and year of acceptance and not the viewer. The war expanded the RACD resources from early in the war through mid 1915. The inspection process was strained and any number of acceptance markings can be found. Just an /I\, W/I\D, 19/I\15 (many collectors dismiss marks like this but they can be real), or unidentified initials and arrows. In around June 1915 the RACD started exerting much more tighter control and a new series of contracts were let and you cannot generally tell date by the mark. June 1915 was around the time frame that the number over W/I\D over letter appeared (this can be reversed but this variation usually corresponds to late or post war acceptance). The number definately refer to an inspector. The letter is a bit of a mystery and may refer to a branch, depot, or commodity. L, M, and N, are usually found with articles of Service Dress, O is usually found on waterproof articles and P on Caps. During the war on occasion you can find a stamp that includes a secondary number. I believe this might indicate date. I have one jacket marked 2027 over W/I\D over L over 18. The 18 maybe the date. If you seen any other of variations I'd like to know. Joe Sweeeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 31 July , 2005 Author Share Posted 31 July , 2005 Hi Joe.....A cursory look reveals that most of mine conform........I do have a jacket that would bear out your last point.....It is marked 336 over W/l\D over M over 18, & has a 1918 dated label..........Both my mackintosh cape & cor blimey cover carry the O also, which fits.... One unusual set of marks I have is on a small pack...../l\ over R over 16......seems like a clothing mark rather than web......also dated MeCo 1916. I also have S under /l\ on an SD jacket. I also note on my web eqipment, that the early bits have low numbers, & the later bits can go quite high as you say..... The highest one I can find is 344 on a 1918 large pack. I am slowly photographing my collection, & noting all the markings at the same time.........If it's any use to you, I'll let you have a list when it's done. (don't hold your breath)........ I've also got a list of markings I've noted down from stuff for sale on eBay, etc, or at fairs, including which item they were on........ I was hoping to make sense of them re. dating, as I said, but as you rightly suggest, there's no magic formula.......... Thanks for your input.....always appreciated. (but difficult to reciprocate)! Chris P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 31 July , 2005 Share Posted 31 July , 2005 Chris I don't have a prewar WBC, but if you don't have the e-tool carriers, I do have a 1910 dated unblancoed head carrier by HGR on my set. I'm not particularly wedded to it as the rest of the set is wartime dated, and would be prepared to swap it for a later stud-fastening example. (The carrier is in excellent condition, but I should point out that it has a 4-digit number on the front in indelible pencil, in case that puts you off.) Regards Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 1 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 1 August , 2005 I do have a near mint 1918 dated example which would suit you...........Send me a PM & we'll sort something out, I'm sure...... Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 2 August , 2005 Share Posted 2 August , 2005 That'd be a buckle fastener - sorry Chris, but any replacement needs to be the stud fastener. Have pm'd you. Regards, Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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