Death of Kitchener

[Andrew Hesketh]

I've just been reading a short article from 'Mysteries Solved & Unsolved', Harold T. Wilkins, Odhams Press, 1959, entitled 'The Mystery of Lord Kitchener's Corpse'. It makes several wild, vague suggestions as to some sort of cover-up etc., most of which sounded a bit daft to me. Anyway, despite this, I've become quite intrigued, so has anyone any good reading suggestions for the loss of Kitchener / Hampshire?

The other point made in the article is the possibility that his body could have been washed up in Norway like many of those drowned at Jutland. I'd never heard this before. Can anyone confirm that some Jutland men ended up in Norway?

Thanks,

Andrew

All these conspiracies - I might have to buy something from Zoism books.......

[Marc Thompson]

This excellent site may be of some interest if you don't already know it....

The Sinking of HMS Hampshire

The site also covers the conspiracy theory.

[Terry Denham]

I don't know about Norway but his ADC, Lieut Col Oswald Fitzgerald who was last seen by Kitchener's side on the Hampshire's deck, was washed ashore in the UK and is now buried in Eastbourne, Sussex.

[wertypop]

I don't know about Norway but his ADC, Lieut Col Oswald Fitzgerald who was last seen by Kitchener's side on the Hampshire's deck, was washed ashore in the UK and is now buried in Eastbourne, Sussex.

For Lt Col Fitgeralds grave see http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?p...p;GRid=40944284

[chrisharley9]

We have Jutland burials in Norway at the following

ARENDAL HOGEDAL CEMETERY

EGERSUND (OR EKERSUND) CHURCHYARD

FARSUND CEMETERY

FREDRIKSTAD MILITARY CEMETERY

KRAGERO CEMETERY

MANDAL CHURCHYARD

STAVERN CHURCHYARD

TONSBERG OLD CEMETERY

Chris

[per ardua per mare per terram]

At least one casualty ended up in Sweden:

Name: JONES, LOFTUS WILLIAM

Initials: L W

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Commander

Regiment/Service: Royal Navy

Unit Text: H.M.S. "Shark"

Age: 36

Date of Death: 31/05/1916

Awards: V C

Additional information: Son of Admiral Loftus Francis Jones and Gertrude Jones (nee Gray), of 30, Sussex Rd., Petersfield, Hants.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: 2. C. 4.

Cemetery: KVIBERG CEMETERY The Commonwealth plot in Kviberg Cemetery now contains 68 burials of the First World War, 30 of which are unidentified.

As HMS Hampshire was sunk in a completely different location to the Jutland casualties the sea drift would also be disimilar.

[PhilB]

How would a sailor be recognized after maybe weeks in the sea? Did they have identity tags similar to soldiers?

[chrisharley9]

All of the Kviberg Naval casualties seem to from Jutland or the drifter Catspaw

Chris

[MichaelBully]

I found a copy of a pamphlet at the British Library titled 'The Murder of Lord Kitchener and the Truth about the Battle of Jutland and the Jews' , the text of Lord Alfred Douglas ( aka 'Bosie') speaking to a meeting in 1923

"Speech made at a public meeting inaugurated by the "Lord Kitchener and Jutland Publicity Committee", held on Fri. 3rd Aug. at the Memorial Hall, Ludgate Circus. Douglas had the speech printed as a pamphlet and distributed over 30,000 copies in London. Douglas was soon after convicted and sentenced to six months in prison after being found guilty of criminal libel against Winston Churchill for claiming that he had been part of a Jewish conspiracy to kill Lord Kitchener. "

The text of the speech was printed in 'The Border Standard' and turned into a two penny leaflet. The 'British Library ' catalogue entry is here.

http://catalogue.bl....0001&format=999

I have never heard of the 'Lord Kitchener and Jutland Publicity Committee'.

Has anyone ever researched this organisation ?

Should just add that I found the leaflet text quite offensive but I am interested to see how seriously the notion that Kitchener was murdered was taken and that people thought the rantings of Lord Alfred Douglas were worth listening to and reprinting.

[truthergw]

I found a copy of a pamphlet at the British Library titled 'The Murder of Lord Kitchener and the Truth about the Battle of Jutland and the Jews' , the text of Lord Alfred Douglas ( aka 'Bosie') speaking to a meeting in 1923

"Speech made at a public meeting inaugurated by the "Lord Kitchener and Jutland Publicity Committee", held on Fri. 3rd Aug. at the Memorial Hall, Ludgate Circus. Douglas had the speech printed as a pamphlet and distributed over 30,000 copies in London. Douglas was soon after convicted and sentenced to six months in prison after being found guilty of criminal libel against Winston Churchill for claiming that he had been part of a Jewish conspiracy to kill Lord Kitchener. "

The text of the speech was printed in 'The Border Standard' and turned into a two penny leaflet. The 'British Library ' catalogue entry is here.

http://catalogue.bl....0001&format=999

I have never heard of the 'Lord Kitchener and Jutland Publicity Committee'.

Has anyone ever researched this organisation ?

Should just add that I found the leaflet text quite offensive but I am interested to see how seriously the notion that Kitchener was murdered was taken and that people thought the rantings of Lord Alfred Douglas were worth listening to and reprinting.

I shouldn't be surprised to find that it was a committee of one. Hitler and his gang did not invent anti-semitism. It has a long and inglorious history. There were many stories about Lord Kitchener. He was a well known name in the days before broadcasting and so any headline or pamphlet with his name on would immediately attract attention ( and sales). He was still popping up in unlikely places for a very long time after the war. Presumably when times were hard and the hard working scribe was being dunned for rent.

[MichaelBully]

Yes certainly anti-semitism re-occures periodically. Lord Alfred Douglas seems to have been part of a network of cranks flourishing in the early 1920's trying to perpetuate anti-semitism and conspiracy theories. From consulting Philip Hoare's 'Wilde's Last Stand- Decadence, Conspiracy and the First World War' , seems that Lord Douglas' literary enterprises were being financed by his mother.

Though Alfred Douglas' case collapsed very quickly once Churchill took action for criminal libel, with only one rather unreliable witness being called for the defence, and the jury only took eight minutes to find him guilty, the conspiracy theories carried on.

The website

http://www.hmshampshire.co.uk/ has some interesting newspaper articles detailing conspiracy theories about Lord Kitchener's death.

I shouldn't be surprised to find that it was a committee of one. Hitler and his gang did not invent anti-semitism. It has a long and inglorious history. There were many stories about Lord Kitchener. He was a well known name in the days before broadcasting and so any headline or pamphlet with his name on would immediately attract attention ( and sales). He was still popping up in unlikely places for a very long time after the war. Presumably when times were hard and the hard working scribe was being dunned for rent.

[MichaelBully]

Hi Terry, I hope to make the trip over to Eastbourne to Colonel Oswald Fitzgerald's grave quite soon.

Have you soon this extract from Pathe Newsreel, concerning Colonel Fitzgerald's funeral ?

http://www.britishpa...rd.php?id=75524

Regards

I don't know about Norway but his ADC, Lieut Col Oswald Fitzgerald who was last seen by Kitchener's side on the Hampshire's deck, was washed ashore in the UK and is now buried in Eastbourne, Sussex.

[kenf48]

Fascinating,, the gun salute is exactly on the path where the grave is and the memorial. a pink granite obelisk stands today. The only difference is it is more built up outside the cemetery where ther are many other interesting WW1 memorials, well worth a visit.

Ken

[MichaelBully]

I was certainly intrigued by the Pathe footage, had wondered how a funeral with full military honours would be conducted.

I take it the cemtery is Eastbourne Ocklinge Cemetery. I will contact Eastbourne Council to get directions and plan to find Colonel Fitzgerald's grave.

It took me a while to find Colonel Fizgerald on the CWGC date base, had not realised that his nationality was listed as 'Indian'.

Regards

Michael Bully

Fascinating,, the gun salute is exactly on the path where the grave is and the memorial. a pink granite obelisk stands today. The only difference is it is more built up outside the cemetery where ther are many other interesting WW1 memorials, well worth a visit.

Ken

[kenf48]

Hi Michael

There is a link to the plan here

http://www.eastbourne.gov.uk/community/bereavement/ocklynge-cemetery/

Fitgerald's grave is in that small section across the path on the right hand (southern) end of Section X you can see an A and then thestraight line of the hedge, his grave is in that small unmarked section. Aplain but imposing stone in the shadow of an angel alongsided it.

The path running roughly east-west at the end of Sections X and V is where the soldiers in the newsreel stood for the salute. There is currently ( and has been for some time safety fencing around the chapel and Cross of Sacrifice at the main entrance in Willingdon Road,where you can usually find a parking place. There are 130 Great War graves in the cemetery, and some from WW2. Before your visit can I suggest you get a copy of Eastbourne's Great War by R.A. Elliston,from Hove library. He has a whole chapter on the Cemetery.

I have photos of most of the WW1 graves, including Fitzgerald but what always strikes me most is the vision of Sir Fabian Ware and the principles of the CWGC about equality of sacrifice etc. although there are a number of CWGC memorials the variety and condition of some of the private memorials is an example of what would happen without the work of the CWGC.Happy to pm the photo, but know you would prefer the thrill of discovery!

Incidentally while Fitzgerald's funeral was exceptional Elliston recounts how military funerals were conducted at the cemetery, often with a band and townsfolk turning out to pay their respects, as well as convalescing soldiers in an early echo of Wooton Bassett today, I've no doubt other towns did the same.

Ken

[MichaelBully]

Thanks for all the information Ken, much appreciated. I will be getting the bus or train over to Eastbourne. Certainly I know from previous experience that best to go looking for a grave with as much information and with a reliable plan.

I will look out for a copy of 'Eastbourne's Great War' . Hope to go some time in the next week and will report back.

Regards, Michael Bully

[MichaelBully]

Still on the subject of Lord Kitchener, found the most strange book in the British Library 'The Message- Lord Kitchener Lives' Received by Ala Mana, Volume 1 ( Margaret Mabel O' Brien) , The Sun Publishing Company Limited, Vancouver, BC. 1922:

In which Lord Kitchener time in the Afterlife is recorded. Intriguing to see how Lord Kitchener was held to be such an important figure in 1920's , that he was said to be conveying messages from the next world .

http://catalogue.bl.uk/F/SYRP5TLMRBKCNI1MR5K6GAD8GJUMI876R99E4ST1G1IPYQCAU1-53821?func=find-b&request=Lord+Kitchener+Lives&find_code=WRD&adjacent=Y&image.x=47&image.y=8

[MichaelBully]

Just come back from Eastbourne, and could not find Colonel Fitzgerald's grave. I took the plan of Ocklinge Cemetery with me.....and was looking at section X . I think that from reading this whole thread again, I have worked out where I went wrong.

Never mind. A good excuse to return to Eastbourne and Okclinge Cemetery is well worth a visit. I found the local reference library had some very useful information so came away happy.

I would like to know more about Colonel Fitzgerald's connection to Eastbourne itself. It seems that a lot of effort was taken to transport his body to Eastbourne.

[MichaelBully]

Have returned to Ocklinge cemetery,Eastbourne and found Colonel Fitzgerald's grave fairly quickly this time.

Give Rest O Christ to thy servant with

Thy Saints, where sorrow and pain are no

More neither sighing but life everlasting

I couldn't read the next line on the gravestone that details where this quote is from. Has anyone who has visited the grave work this out? Thanks

[michaeldr]

Words: Eastern Orthodox Memorial Service;

trans. W. J. Birkbeck (1869-1916)

per Google, which also informs that it was used at Pres. R Reagan's service

[grantowi]

In 1911 census, Kitchener and Fitzgerald are staying at the County Hotel, 30-31 High Street, Canterbury.

They are listed as Herbert and Oswald and described as "Soldiers", "Workers who worked at home".

Oswalds birth place is given as India with his nationality as Irish.

Grant

[Ron Clifton]

Words: Eastern Orthodox Memorial Service;

trans. W. J. Birkbeck (1869-1916)

per Google, which also informs that it was used at Pres. R Reagan's service

It is also known as the Kontakion for the Departed. It is in the BBC Hymn Book, and I have sung it several times. It may also be in the English Hymnal, but it is not in Songs of Praise or Ancient & Modern.

Ron

[daggers]

QUOTE: It may also be in the English Hymnal

It is, at least in the New EH, 1986 version, as No 526. It is not set out in 'poetic' lines, but as continuous text, headed 'The Russian Contakion of the Departed'.

The lines quoted above by MichaelBulley are the closing three lines out of thirteen. There is no additional line, but it may be the source as given here.

D

[michaeldr]

The lines quoted above by MichaelBulley are the closing three lines out of thirteen. There is no additional line, but it may be the source as given here.

While here they are the opening lines.........

Give rest, O Christ, to thy servant with thy saints:

where sorrow and pain are no more;

neither sighing but life everlasting.

Thou only art immortal, the creator and maker of man:

and we are mortal formed from the dust of the earth,

and unto earth shall we return:

for so thou didst ordain,

when thou created me saying:

"Dust thou art und unto dust shalt thou return."

All we go down to the dust;

and weeping o'er the grave we make our song:

Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.

[MichaelBully]

Thanks for all the posts. Much appreciated.

In respect of

Give Rest O Christ to thy servant with

Thy Saints, where sorrow and pain are no

More neither sighing but life everlasting

As mentioned I could not read the next line on the gravestone of Oswald Fitzgerald.

According to my notes ......................... ( indecipherable word) of St. Chrysosterm or could be Chryscterm .

Looked at John Pollock's biography 'Kitchener' and the St. Paul's memorial service to Lord Kitchener on the 15th June 1916,' The Liturgy of St. Chrysostom 'was sung by the choir.

This ' Liturgy of St. Chrysostom' seems to be what is stated on Colonel Fitzgerald's gravestone.