RAMC transfers to the London Regt May 1916

[Charles Fair]

At the beginning of May 1916 the 60th Division received a large draft of “some three thousand men of the RAMC who had volunteered for infantry”. (Col. PH Dalbiac CBE TD, 'History of the 60th Division', pp. 36-37)

Of these, 272 were allocated to the 2/19th London Regiment. This draft “contained men from all parts of the country, especially Wales and the North, and these added diverse elements.” By then the battalion had settled down and its spirit “proved equal to absorbing them all into the body corporate and they proved a most useful addition”. (see Major FW Eames, 'The Second Nineteenth', p. 162)

From my database of 19th Londons I have identified a batch of men who all went to France with the 2/19th on 24 June 1916. This batch has 19th London numbers ranging from about 6165 to 6408. According to SDITGW, every man in this batch that died (about 40) had had former service in the RAMC. Their RAMC numbers are given from 72800 to 82000, with the majority in the range 77000 to 79000. Since this block of numbers is arranged in alphabetical order of surnames, I have made the reasonable deduction that the whole batch consists of former RAMC men. Nicely consistent with the quotes above too.

My questions to the forum:

1. Is there anyone with experience of the RAMC who might be able to suggest when these men first enlisted from the evidence of their RAMC numbers? (I have a hunch it was late 1915/early 1916 but little evidence for this other than one who I know enlisted on 1 Nov 1915 until I plough through WO 363 and 364) Were they from Territorial or New Army units of the RAMC?

2. Has anyone else found evidence a big transfer of men from the RAMC into infantry units (esp of 60 Div) at about this time?

I think this episode says something about the lack of manpower planning in the Army in the first couple of years of the war.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Charles

Do not know if following is of any help.

The K.S.L.I. received about 70 - 80 men of the RAMC in possibly Mid 1915 ?, out of these 10 were killed, the earlist being killed was 25/9/15. The numbers of those killed ranged between 45209- 55275.

Regards

Annette

[charlesmessenger]

Annette

Your transfers appear to be as a result of the Army Transfer Act, which removed a Territorial's right not to be posted to another unit without his consent. It resulted in 2,000 RAMC being transferred to the infantry.

Charles

It looks as though your men might have been Derbytes.

Charles M

[Muerrisch]

Five RAMC men transferred to RWF in a block [rgtl. numbers] around July 1915 give or take a month, ended up dying with 2RWF Somme period. Of course, remainder of block could be large, either survived with 2RWF, or died or survived with other RWF battalions.

In any case, this is the only block transfer from RAMC that I know of within my special area.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi all

Charles M & F - did the RAMC men you both mention end with rifle and bayonet or did they become stretcher bearers. I just persumed that the ones who joined the K.S.L.I. had been sent to them for the roll of stretcher bearer or to man Battalion Aid posts ?

Regards

Annette

[charlesmessenger]

Annette

Some may have become stretcher bearers, but I suspect that the majority beame ordinary infantrymen.

Charles M

[Charles Fair]

Charles M - thanks, I also suspect they are Derby scheme men.

Annette - the vast majority, if not all, went straight into the rifle companies as ordinary infantrymen.

All, Thanks for comments and additional information so far.

Charles F

[Annette Burgoyne]

Thanks to both Charles'

[Jock Bruce]

Charles (F),

if it helps - according to SDitGW, the first RAMC men with 77xxx numbers KIA/DOW were in Aug 16.

Jock

[Charles Fair]

I think I am now part way to answering my own question. Today at the PRO I looked at the papers of two men from this RAMC batch who were later commissioned from the 19th into other units. Numbers are:

77647 - enlisted 3 Nov 1915 at London - age 24, single

77758 - enlisted 1 Nov 1915 at Widnes - age 20, single

They both started service immediately. Yes, the dates are the wrong way round - but thats how they were written - I guess different blocks of numbers allocated to the RAMC being used in different locations.

Both service records have written alongside the note of their transfer:

"60 Division Authority CRNC 29641/A2 16-5-16"

In both cases the 60 Division has been crossed out and replaced by 2/19th London Regt.

Presumably this is an order dated 16 May 1916 emanating from the A branch of 60 Div, but what does the rest mean? I assume there was something coming from higher up authorising it, as I cant imagine 60 Div would have been allowed to grab men from wherever it fancied, however understrength it was.

I am still puzzled as to whether other Divs received large numbers of RAMC men at this time.

I am wondering if at the time these two men enlisted, the RAMC had a recruiting surge with men choosing to attest voluntarily in the RAMC under the Derby Scheme, in the hope that they might stay in it. The choice was to wait to be conscripted and have no choice, probably guaranteeing that you would end up as cannon fodder. Perhaps a sensible stratgy for those who did not want to be infantry. The RAMC thus ended up over recruited in early 1916, hence the mass transfer to 60 Div in June 16.

[Guest Medic]

Does anyone know or a good reference which describes the allocation and change of numbers to RAMC soldiers? I shoudl be very grateful.

[Charles Fair]

Does anyone know or a good reference which describes the allocation and change of numbers to RAMC soldiers? I shoudl be very grateful.

I dont know of one: if such a thing exists I for one would very much like to see it.

Perhaps there is someone out there working on a database of RAMC men who would be able to help.

I have since found another four service records of men transferred into the 19th from the RAMC. They are all similar to the two examples given in my post above of 10 July i.e. they all appear to be Derby men who attested in early Nov 1915.

[Guest FrankB]

Hi,

Excuse me butting in on this topic with my first post but I suspect you have

answered a question that has been lurking for a while!

My grandfather was a first-aider and enlisted in the RAMC - 5th London Field

Ambulance (TF) with the 47th (London) Division - in March 1914. He went to

the line in March 1915 (apparently with the first TA division to land) and, as a

stretcher bearer, took part in several actions (including Festubert, Loos and

the defence of Vimy Ridge in May 1916).

He then transferred to 20th Batt London Regiment in June 1916 and was sent

for "further infantry training", rejoining battalion in August and was subsequently

injured while throwing a grenade - i.e., no longer stretcher bearer.

I hadn't been able to find out *why* he went from a pacifist first-aider to a

combat infantryman - he was an ambulanceman in WWII - and had assumed

that the horrors he'd seen had somehow convinced him to fight. This thread

suggests that he probably didn't have any choice in the matter at all.

Does this seem reasonable (or have I jumped to the wrong conclusion here)?

Thanks,

Frank

[Charles Fair]

Frank

It is bit hard to be sure from what you have posted so far. Do you have any additional info such as would be found from his service record?

Was your grandfather wounded at Vimy Ridge and returned to the UK? If so, when he came back to France did he go to 1/20th London Regt (in 47 Div) or 2/20th London Regt (in 60 Div)? If the latter I suspect a forced transfer.

If he did not come back to the UK and remained throughout with 47 Div then I think a voluntary transfer is more likely. Once men had got as far forward as their units they were unlikely to be posted around the units within that division en masses. (Though transfers within a division's subunits did occur e.g. men transferring from the infantry battalions to the Trench Mortar Batteries, Machine Gun Coys, Div Signal Coy etc. These transfers were usually small scale and often voluntary.) Large mass transfers such as that in my original post were, I believe, only carried out back at the base depots - the best examples of such transfers were after the March retreat in March 1918 where drafts were posted almost at random from the base depots to any unit that needed them.

My earlier posts relate specifically to the transfers from the RAMC to units in 60 Div (2/2 London Div). From the ones that I have looked at these RAMC men appear to be Derby Scheme men (and not 1914 volunteers like your gfather). However, they may include some RAMC who had been returned to the UK to recover from wounds and who happened to be based at an RAMC depot at the time this transfer was made.

I havent yet come across similar transfers to 47 Div at this time, but would be intetrested to know of such.

There is a fellow called Neil Bright (not yet on the forum but I am hopeful) who is researching the 20th Londons. He may be able to help answer your query in time.

Your gfather may alternatively have had some choice in the matter. My great uncle Reggie Secretan spent the first two years of the war as a despatch rider in the ASC until he decided to seek a commission in the infantry. It is clear from his letters and familiy stories that he was driven by a sense of duty (and to some extent a sense of adventure). This transfer from a relatively cushy job mainly spent in the rear areas to the infantry cost him his life.

[Guest FrankB]

Charles,

Thanks for the quick reply (sorry for the delay in reading it!)

No, my grandfather was not injured at Vimy and did not return to the UK.

From his log book, he had "three weeks rest at Manneville", was awarded

the Military Medal (on 12th June) for stretcher-bearing at Vimy then was

"transferred to 20th Battalion London regiment" and "sent to Havre [sic]

for further infantry training".

He rejoined his battalion at Bresle in late August, eventually ending with

"15th September 1916

Went over the top at High Wood.

After plenty of sport, stopped an explosive bullet in right arm".

The next part of his "tour" included the American hospital at Cammiers,

Netley and Woolwich and tailed off with the poignant reminder of his age:

"Celebrated 21st birthday in fine style - had 7th operation".

Still, the good news was that he met his future wife (my grandmother) as

a result of this - she was assisting as a nurse at one of the homes where

my grandfather was recuperating.

Sorry if I just jumped to the wrong conclusion but I've always found it

fascinating as to why a peaceful man who opted not to join combat forces

at the start of WWI (or WWII either) suddenly transferred for infantry

training after over two years in a Field Ambulance.

Thanks for your help,

Frank

PS: Interesting that your signature mentions a St.Helens unit - that's where

I was born! Small world and all that ...

[Charles Fair]

For cross referencing purposes, this thread is about a man who served in this batch: Sergeant Stanley Broadbent 2nd/19th London