Muerrisch Posted 19 June , 2005 Share Posted 19 June , 2005 and another: the army always salutes with right hand if not under arms [or, under some defined circumstances, not at all]. Was it always thus? And if not, when was the change, citing chapter and verse? And, for full marks, which famous author made comment on the matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 19 June , 2005 Share Posted 19 June , 2005 I believe that until some time in 1917 it was possible to salue with both hands, the correct one be that farthest away from the recipient. Regards, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jschleicher Posted 19 June , 2005 Share Posted 19 June , 2005 As far as the US Army goes, I believe they have always saluted with the right hand. The only exception would be if the soldier had his rifle at "Right shoulder arms", then he would salute with his left hand across his chest. I do not ever recall seeing a photo or drawing or reading of US soldiers saluting with their left hand (except in the above cited example). Of course there are several times you would not salute, being at "Present Arms" or marching in a formation (unless ordered to) are just a couple. As we know, the salute developed, by legend anyway, as a method of showing non-hostile intentions. One Knight meeting another would raise his visor as a way of showing that he did not intend to fight. Since the majority of Knights (much like today)were right handed, he would use his weapon hand (right) to do this (his sword being worn on his left side). As Armies became professional standing units, uniformity dictated that everybody (at least in lower ranks) would dress and wear their equipment in the same way, hence the sword would be worn on the left, and the salute would be given with the weapon hand as a matter of tradition and respect. Off topic, but in the same ballpark. The sword being worn on the left side is also why we traditionally mount a horse on its left side, they didn't much like swords being banged and dragged across their behinds much. This tradition isn't totally pervasive anymore I'm sure, but when I was taught to ride, that was the first lesson. Of course since its been a while since I have had to salute anyone, and I'm willing to admit I may be wrong. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 19 June , 2005 Share Posted 19 June , 2005 Re Left Hand-Right-hand ("the story of good and evil" ): this bit of info comes from an unit's battalion orders dated July 1918: "The left hand salute by warrant officers, Non-comissioned officers and men is abolished. The salute will be given by all ranks with the right hand. When saluting to the side the head will be turned towards the person saluted. In all cases where from physical incapacity a right-hand salute is impossible, the salute will be given with the left hand. (Authority: -A.O. 211 of 1918). Company commanders will take steps to ensure that this order is brought to the notice of all ranks under their Command and that the order is strictly carried out." I get from this that prior to that both hands could be used from the salute? Not too sure but maybe. I have attached an scanner of an humorous picture about the matter (by Cartoonist Robert Stewart Sherriffs, appearing in his book "Salute if you must"). The period is certainly post-WWI, but the situation depicted is timeless. Hope this helps, Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glosters Posted 20 June , 2005 Share Posted 20 June , 2005 The left-hand salute was abolished by AO 211 (July 1918) unless physical incapacity made a right-hand salute impossible. Before that the rule was: "The salute will be made with the hand further from the person saluted"; although there were situations already laid down when a right-hand salute only should be used. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 20 June , 2005 good good, excellent stuff ............ but who [famous author] was amused that the rules of saluting were altered in the crisis of the biggest war ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick H Posted 20 June , 2005 Share Posted 20 June , 2005 Kipling ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gporta Posted 20 June , 2005 Share Posted 20 June , 2005 George Bernard Shaw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 20 June , 2005 neither of these very fine cakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayne w Posted 20 June , 2005 Share Posted 20 June , 2005 What about us sinister ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 20 June , 2005 you must needs become more dextrous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayne w Posted 20 June , 2005 Share Posted 20 June , 2005 I am.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayne w Posted 20 June , 2005 Share Posted 20 June , 2005 Worked for Mod for quite a few years to clear things up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayne w Posted 20 June , 2005 Share Posted 20 June , 2005 Worked for Mod for quite a few years to clear things up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 20 June , 2005 Share Posted 20 June , 2005 A P Herbert? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGWR Posted 21 June , 2005 Share Posted 21 June , 2005 Robert Graves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2005 I cannot reveal the author until I can lay my hands on his [yes, a man] exact chapter reference. Will scuffle around asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 24 June , 2005 Share Posted 24 June , 2005 I cannot reveal the author until I can lay my hands on his [yes, a man] exact chapter reference. Will scuffle around asap. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Any joy? I'm on tenterhooks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 25 June , 2005 no, dammit .......... this is as close to embarrassed as I get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lassuy Posted 25 June , 2005 Share Posted 25 June , 2005 Actually, the US army did indeed salute with the left hand, and least in the late 1800's. When being paid, the soldier was to salute the paymaster with his left hand, while simultaneously extending his right hand, palm upwards, to receive his pay. Gloved hands, of course. Interestingly enough, the US army had no standard salute until 1878. During the Civil War, the palm out salute was mostly used, but in his revised tactics of 1874, Gen. Emory Upton preferred the palm down, index finger to the forehead salute. Both types remained in use at the preference of the post commander until the palm down salute was standardized in 1878. When the left hand salute was discontinued, I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 27 June , 2005 Share Posted 27 June , 2005 It is mentioned in Captain Jack's Diary with a comment from another officer that the Germans knew that they would lose if we could change such petty regulations at such a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 27 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2005 Correct: well done. General Jack [diary edited by John Terraine and a MUST on every Pal's bookshelf, wrote, tongue in cheek: "It has been suggested that altering the hand salute of the army in the midst of critical operations did much to break the enemy's heart ..... " Chapter V, afternote to August 2nd 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneakyimp Posted 1 August , 2013 Share Posted 1 August , 2013 Where might one read this Army Order 211 of July 1918? I've been googling "British Army Orders" and various other combinations but all I get is 'order of battle' links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 1 August , 2013 Share Posted 1 August , 2013 In the National Archives at Kew: WO 123 Ministry of Defence and predecessors: Army Circulars, Memoranda, Orders and Regulations 1711-1992 WO 123/56 Army orders (War Office) 1914 WO 123/57 Army orders (War Office) 1915 WO 123/58 Army orders (War Office) 1916 WO 123/59 Army orders (War Office) 1917 WO 123/60 Army orders (War Office) 1918 I don't think they are available online - certainly not from Kew - so a personal visit may be necessary. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 1 August , 2013 Share Posted 1 August , 2013 or a soldier riding a bike. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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