Guest FRANKBARTHOLOMEW Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 In World War One, were the Gorget Tabs issued to officers of the RAMC, Royal Engineers and the Ordnance Corps different in colour to those of Infantry, Artillery and Cavalry Officers (which were scarlet)? I saw in a book on WWII uniform that they were different colours, depending on which Corps one was attached to. When did this come about? Frank Bartholomew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tintin Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 It was the arm of the staff rather than the parent corps that dictated the colour of the tab - Red was the General Staff. the bar in the centre also differs with the rank of the wearer I do not know when they were introduced, but the introduction of khakhi service dress for temperate climates in 1902 and the growth of staffs following the creation of the Army Council and the post of CIGs was probably the start of it. There was quite a full description of these in the two volume First World War book by the Funkens (a book I'd love to see again), but I've never seen any thing about gorget patches anywhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FRANKBARTHOLOMEW Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 Thanks, I'll see what I can dig up on the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 Special Army Order of 17 Jan 1902 which intro. Service Dress for Officers neither invented nor changed gorget patches. Therefore, either a pre-existing system continued, or the patches were intro. afterwards. I suspect the former, and although out of my period, I do have some references, so will grovel around when next I have leisure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 Gorget patches seem not to have existed as staff distinctions before 1902, but I suspect were invented and sanctioned before 1914. Kings Regs 1912 and 1914 mute on subject. By 1918 there was a full-blown system for use in service dress. I attach [if it works] all you need to know from 1918 edition Of Mil. Org. and Admin. by Major GRN Collins. The impossible takes a little longer. If this fails, will do a hand job on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 Don't have the Regs to hand, but yes, the Branches wore distinguishing colour gorget patches. RAMC's were 'Dull Cherry' RE, RA, Staff, were Scarlet Dentists were Green, with a light green gimp (stripe dwn the centre) Chaplains were purple, with a black horn button Never having seen a real one, I gather the RFC's were sky blue with a red gimp. Intelligence staff wore all green ones. There were yellow ones also (Pay, I think?) This list not exhaustive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 Curses, could not work the attachment thingy. In brief: gorgets and cap band matched. Generals commanding formations gold gimp on gorget. crimson with similar gimp: all GSO, AG, QMG, Bde Maj,Staff Capt, Mil Attache, ADC, Orderly O, Cols commanding Bdes. blue with a red gimp on centre line: Engineers and almost anything you can think of such as [the list is endless] supplies, transport, ordnance, medical, veterinary, remounts, signals, postal, railway etc etc. Green with light green gimp: at home only, musketry, gymnasia, recruiting, catering, home Intelligence black: chaplains. I searched diligently for artillery, and concluded they were all GS. Even longer list by 1940 but we don't want that, do we? Do we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 I fear Staffsyeoman's list is c. 1940, I have two such sources with very similar lists. They had not got that inventive by 1918 according to Collins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 Gorgets were originally a piece of armour that protected the throat. They were retained as a distinctive piece of officers uniform after armour was dispensed with and were hung on a piece of ribbon around the neck. The Clothing Warrant of 12th December 1768 directed that the Kings Arms and Regimental number were to be engraved upon them. They appear to have gone out of use after 1830 but according to T L Edwards's "Military Customs," were reintroduced as as the Gorget patch or tab, during the Boer War. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesmessenger Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 Initially gorgets were restricted to G, A, and Q staff officers down to and including Brigade Majors and Staf Captains, as well as ADCs [ACI dated 23 Aug 14]. Under a further ACI dated 5 Oct 14 Directors, Assistant Directors, and Deputy Assistant Directors at the War Office became entitled. The list given by Langleybaston reflects the significant exoanion authorised by Army Order 92/16. Charles M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 I stand corrected on the Sapper gorgets. But mine also come from a print of a page from 'The Boy's Own' paper in 1916. I think I'm right (by recollection of Regs) about the RFC ones - the colour scheme is, to put it politely, 'striking'. Yellow ones were, I think authorised but I wouldn't die in a ditch over whether they were actually worn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 1 July , 2003 Share Posted 1 July , 2003 Fosten and Marrion 'The British Army 1914-1918' give two lists, one said to date from 1911 Dress Regs as follows: Staff crimson, ASC blue with white silk line, Medical Staff Colonels blue with black braid line, other medical plain blue, ordnance blue with scarlet line, Pay blue with yellow, Veterinary Colonels maroon with scarlet line, other vets plain maroon, School of Instruction Inspectors blue with light blue. Cites AO 92, as per my previous list. Given the dubious reputations of staff officers, the above seem at the limits of acceptable complexity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FRANKBARTHOLOMEW Posted 2 July , 2003 Share Posted 2 July , 2003 This seems to have created quite a debate. Keep up the good work, chaps! Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 3 July , 2003 Share Posted 3 July , 2003 From left to right: Major Bell RE, Major Gen Sir Ivor Phillips, the Mayor of Abergavenny, unknown, Capt Kirkwood RE, Lt Lloyd George, Capt Morrall RE. Lt Lloyd George is wearing gorgets, presumably a staff officer to Phillips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesmessenger Posted 4 July , 2003 Share Posted 4 July , 2003 Terry Ivor Philipps was commanding 38th (Welsh) Division and Gwilym Lloyd George, David LG's younger son, was his ADC and hence entitled to wear staff tabs. Charles M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted 4 July , 2003 Share Posted 4 July , 2003 White were for Political Officers like those under Sir Percy Cox in Mesopotamia. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FRANKBARTHOLOMEW Posted 26 July , 2003 Share Posted 26 July , 2003 Just to return to this subject, I have been looking at a website on the AIF: http://www.unsw.adfa.edu.au/~rmallett/Generals; and it leaves me wondering: did Staff Officers of the Medical, Engineers and Ordnance branches, below the rank of Full Colonel, wear gorget tabs on their uniforms? I've been trying to look at the photograph on the divisions section of this webpage, and cannot work it out. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. Frank Bartholomew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_acorn Posted 1 February , 2006 Share Posted 1 February , 2006 This is going to be quite a long addition to this thread, I hope it helps. Extracted from a post March 1916 WW1, One Shilling booklet "Badges and their meaning" A companion to "Rank at a Glance" produced by George Philip and Son Ltd 32 Fleet St London. STAFF AND DEPARTMENTAL CAPS AND GORGET BADGES An Army Oder was issued in March 1916, defining the correct dress as far as it affects Caps and Gorget Patches to be worn by Officers holding General, Administrative, Technical and Departmental Staff, and Miscellaneous Appointments as follows: Any Officer holding any of the appointments in list "A" to wear the Staff forage cap, with peak embroidered or plain according to rank, and with cover of drab material, fitted so as to show the scarlet band, badge and peak (see image). They are also to wear the scarlet cloth gorget patches, with a line of crimson gimp as shown in the latter image. A Appointments at the War Office Asst Adjt General Asst to the Deputy Asst Director Asst Directors Asst Director-General Army Med Svcs Assist Director-General Army Vet Svcs Asst Mil Secretary Asst to chief Inspector of QM-General Svcs Dep-Asst Adjt-General Dep-Asst Director-General Army Med Svcs Dep-Asst Director-General Army vet Svcs Dep-Directors Dep-Director-General Army Vet Svcs Directors General Staff Officers Gd, 1, 2 and 3 Inspector of Army Ordnance Svcs Inspector of Med Svcs Staff Captain Staff LT Sub-Director Outside the war Office and in the Field ADC asst Adjt and QM General Asst Mil Sec Assist QM Asst to Major-General in charge of Admin BM Colonel Comd an Infantry Bde Dep-Adjt and QM-General Dep-Adjt-General Dep-Asst Adjt and QM-General Dep-Asst Adjt-General Dep-Asst Mil Sec Dep-Asst QM-General Dep QM-General General Staff Officers Inspector of Arty Inspector of Cavalry Inspector of Infantry Inspector of Reserve Units Inspector of RE Inspector of RGA Inspector of RHA and Field Arty Inspector of the Territorial Forces Mil Attaches Mil Sec Staff Captain Staff LT Officers holding appointments that are "graded as" one of the above, and Officers "attached" to the Staff, are not to wear the Staff forage cap and scarelt gorget patches. More to follow in due course (List B and C, plus images from the booklet), cheers for now, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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