Criteria for names on Memorials

[shaymen]

I think this question may have been asked before but I have searched without any luck.

How was it decided who were commemorated on a local war memorial.

As I get more into researching my local mem it appears there are plenty of names that should have been included.

I have read about names being added.

What if any was the criteria for names being put on a Memorial.

Thanks

Glyn

[Terry Denham]

The criteria varied from place to place as local memorials were erected by ad hoc groups usually consisting of local worthies, councillors, churchmen etc.

They decided who should be included and they came up with varying criteria - residents, local workers, family members of locals etc.

One on our local memorial was simply a friend of the local squire who visited the area at weekends!

[chris.wight]

Terry, that must have taken a fair bit of detective work to come up with that detail.

[shaymen]

Terry

Thanks for that - Just seems odd that one named on my memorial had 2 cousins not on it. And plenty who were born and lived here not remembered but some with only slight connections are named.

Do you think it controversial if names are added 90 years later - or should they be left in their original state

How often are names added to Memorials ?

Thanks

Glyn

[Desmond7]

Glynn - Names MUST be added. Thus on our BoroughWar Memorial we have only one 'Joe Bloggs' .. in fact, two Joe Bloggs died on different dates with different btns of the same regiment.

Not only that .. we have only one 'Jim Bloggs' .. in fact two 'Jim Bloggs' died on different dates etc.

I know cos it was only 'caught on' when a relative told me 'here sonny our Joe Bloggs died in 1915 and you've got hime down as 1916'!!!

Gobsmacked.

Realised that people from different families had been going to Memorial Park for years thinking that it was THEIR Joe Bloggs that was 'named'.

See what I mean?

Des

[shaymen]

Des

Totally agree mate.

When I have finished my research on those not named I will present my case.

I suppose the parish council would be the first port of call.

Glyn

[larneman]

In my home the British Legion would not consider adding names that had not been included. This was about 9 years ago. I have the son of a Methodist Minister who lived in Belfast but did a tour duty in Larne for 2 or 3 years before going back to Belfast. I have a brother that lived all his life in Ballymena, then went into the Navy and because his sister lived in Larne he is remembered there. I have a couple of others with no real connection with Larne. I have a few with the names spelt wrongly or then there are more I have not found. I also have a large group that have not been included. Research is ongoing and they, all, will be remembered on their own website and on DVD for the local libiary.

Liam

[larneman]

Is there not enough WW1 ammo, gas, mines, etc in the Beaufort Dyke without you adding more live rounds, DES.

I agree with your atitude but softly, softly and public opinion usually will work with even the thickest of them with a "my posterior" manner.

The Irish Sea is polluted enough.

Liam

[shaymen]

One thing is certain - When my research is finished I will do my utmost to make sure those not commemorated are remembered in one way or another.

That is the least they deserve after what they went through.

Also lets never forget those that fought and survived !

Glyn

[shaymen]

Des / Liam

Hope I haven't started something - come on guys kiss and make up.

Glyn

[larneman]

Sorry Glyn, if I am sending the wrong signals but I am in agreement with DES.

Was just teasing a little bit because the Irish Sea between Scotland and Larne is full of stuff from WW1, WW2, and every other war since, atomic waste and you never know, UFO'S.

LIAM

[southafricawargraves]

Hi,

My local war memorial is a plaque in the local Royal Canadian Legion. Our cenitaph has no names on it. The plaque itself wasn't creeated until upwards of 15 years ago.

The original person who researched the names only had scattered info and faded newspaper obits to go by.

Since I first took pictures of the names on that plaque, three have found to be not to be casaulties at all. Furthermore an additional 20 + names need to be added.

The veterans whom I work with at the Legion are most interested in every extra name I come up with and plans of Addenda panels to be added at a future date will be included.

My home town is pretty small. If you blink long enough you'll drive right through town. So when I found that we even have a Korea War casualty (one of 516 for Canada) I was pretty excited. But not as excited when I found a Vietnam casualty, one of about 100 Canadians serving with US Forces and only one of seven listed as MIA.

There are fantastic stories to be told on these memorials as I'm sure most have found out researching them.

[John_Hartley]

Names MUST be added.

Sorry, mate. But I disagree. Generally speaking.

As Terry points out, the original names were put on because they met the criteria of the time. Often we cannot now find what that criteria was. Was it residents only, or someone who worked in the neighbourhood or even just a relative of someone.

Also, we cannot know why someone was left off - it may be that the family did not want the person commemorating - perhaps they were a bad father, son, brother or husband. Perhaps it would have offended their religious beliefs. Perhaps they were too grief stricken. Perhaps a widow who had remarried did not want a constant reminder.

In my view, it is not for us to second-guess our predecessors in this.

That said, I think there is a difference where a modern day relative discovers an ancestor who is not on the memorial. The modern day person is the "custodian" of the family history and, I think, has a right to see their relative commemorated. This, of course, presumes that the modern days custodians of the memorial also agree.

If I can personalise the matter.

I've researched the men on my local memorials. In the course of this, I have found at least one man who was a local resident who is not commemorated. I suspect, although I can't prove it, that he simply had no family still living locally who would have been able put his name forward. I have not made any bid to the council that he should be added not would I think it right to do so.

I've also discovered a relative (my great uncle) in another part of the town also not commeorated. I had no qualms about applying for his name to be added. And it was (albeit not on the memorial that his name would have been originally inscribed on).

John

[kinnethmont]

I have to agree with Terry's response.

I have for some years researched my own and neighbouring rural parishes in Aberdeenshire and can advise that a pattern exists whereby the men named were either born in or lived in or had their family home there at their death. This is true of a number who served with the Canadians having enlisted there as single men.

Similarities exist in England.

Check out the epitaph the War Memorial Committee left behind them, the text on the memorial. This usually assists in defining the criteria used.

War Memorial Committees were formed by local people who were well aware of who left the town or village never to return. Once their work was done, any surplus funds were usually dispersed among the casualties families and the Committee disbanded, duty done.

Without doubt those best placed to judge the matter in regard to adding WW1 casualties carried out their task, all facts considered, when the memorial was erected, usually by Public Subscription.

Unless it can be proved, beyond doubt, that a genuine mistake was made, it should be left as it is. We should not try to re-write history 80 years after the event.

[Terry Denham]

My personal view is that nobody has the right to deny any casualty their proper commemoration - and that includes wives, parents and husbands, let alone further removed relatives or outsiders.

This is the policy of CWGC who have refused n-o-k requests to omit certain names from their memorials. I have to say that I agree with this view wholeheartedly.

In 2000 I had eight names added to my local war memorial without any opposition and with much local support - all were men with local connections but who had no local relatives around in 1920/1946 to put their names forward. One (the only one from WW2) was refused by the local committee because he lived thirty yards outside the parish boundary but had spent all his life in the village (the vicar of the day was a forceful character by all accounts!).

Whether you push for amendments to be made to local war memorials must be a personal decision but apathy and opposition must never be taken as a reason not to try to obtain recognition for a person's sacrifice.

[Terry Denham]

Malcolm

We were obviously posting at the same time!

I agree about re-writing history but I regard adding names as extending our historical knowledge.

[BeppoSapone]

On the 7th June last year I posted something about the names included on local War Memorials. As it is apt I will paste it below here.

"I have a question about Birkenhead War Memorial, and maybe others too?

My great uncle, killed in 1918, was from Birkenhead, and is not listed on the local memorial. I remembered this, but the following had slipped my mind.

Some years ago I obtained a list of the other members of 1/4 Cheshires killed on 14 October 1918, IIRC compiled from "Soldiers Died". The 1/4 was a local TA bn that had not seen major action earlier in the war. Looking at the list I have, no less than 10 of the listed soldiers were born and/or enlisted in Birkenhead.

In 1990 I wrote to Birkenhead Central Library, who hold/held the "Birkenhead Men who Fell in the War" sheets, from which the names for the memorial were obtained. The library told me that, having checked and double checked the list I supplied only one of the men is actually on the Birkenhead War Memorial!

They said ".. the present search shows that the Roll may only represent a fraction of the number of local people killed, which is a depressing thought".

How common is this? Is Birkenhead an isolated case?"

[Desmond7]

Glynn - no worries - I knew where Liam was coming from on the Beaufort Dyke!!

Boys -I ask you to considermy Joe Bloggs scenario with the real names and see exactly what I mean. This is gonna take a while ... but here's the first. As I have said above - we have only ONE J. McFall and ONE D. McFall on the Memorial. And descendants still care deeply. I've spoken to them.

This is clear cut case for addition IMHO Photos follow:-

Name: McFALL, DANIEL

Initials: D

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Rifleman

Regiment: Royal Irish Rifles

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 19

Date of Death: 10/07/1915

Service No: 10276

Additional information: Son of Thomas and Rosetta McFall.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 40

Cemetery: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Name: McFALL, JAMES

Initials: J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Rifleman

Regiment: Royal Irish Rifles

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 20

Date of Death: 08/05/1915

Service No: 10277

Additional information: Son of the late James McFall.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 40

Cemetery: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Name: McFALL, DANIEL

Initials: D

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Rifleman

Regiment: Royal Irish Rifles

Unit Text: 8th Bn.

Age: 28

Date of Death: 02/07/1916

Service No: 626

Additional information: Husband of Matilda McFall, of William Street Square, Ballymena, Co. Antrim.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 15 A and 15 B

Cemetery: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Name: McFALL, JAMES

Initials: J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lance Corporal

Regiment: Royal Irish Rifles

Unit Text: 19th Bn.

Age: 20

Date of Death: 08/07/1916 Service No: 682 Additional information: Son of Mrs. Annie Moore, of Galgorm Parks,

Cullybackey, Co. Antrim. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Screen Wall.

Cemetery: KENSAL GREEN (ST. MARY'S) ROMAN CATHOLIC CEMETERY

[shaymen]

Pals

Thanks for all your input into this thread - Very interseting stuff.

I would like to pick up on a few points.

Firstly, John I am not on a crusade with this and take your points raised as very appropriate - I will not try to get names added without consent from closest living relatives.

Secondly I must agree with Terry on his comment about re-writing history - surely its about remembering and encouraging future generations to NEVER forget.

Lastly as Southafricanwargraves says it does bring about some fantastic stories.

Keep this healthy debate going

Glyn

Note : Good luck Des

[john w.]

I have been through this process like most here but decided to create a virtual war memorial instead, one that would list those killed and gove information about them.

The difference is that as new ones come to light then they too can be added and it is there for all to see..

Have been down the road of RBL and the Parish Council, in my case a waste of time and one that I was appalled at the reaction.

You can see where I am at on www.stock.org.uk and look for the war memorial in the listing.

John

[shaymen]

Thanks John

Sad to hear you had a negative response from RBL and Parish council. Lets hope all parish councils are not the same.

Websites looking good and as you say it can always be updated.

Regards

Glyn

[healdav]

I think there are two points here.

Firstly, there does seem to have been some sort of competition - right across Europe and understandable in a way - for villages and towns to have been seen to have 'suffered'.

I know of one memorial in a small village here, where the number of men commemorated as having died in WW2 (there are barely any WW1 memorials) is almost as great as the number of people living in the village! The same names are on memorials in villages in the same area.

I discovered that this village had decided to call its memorial the 'regional' memorial and thus simply put on it all the names they could find!

The second point is how important it is to record as much detail as is possible on the memorial about each name. Many memorials only give the name and when it is John Smith or the equivalent, life becomes difficult.

One memorial here - which has a long history that makes a story in itself - actually has not only names, ages, dates of birth and death, but also reason for death as well (a lot are children killed by UX). Absolutely no mistaking anyone.

On another tack was there any government guidance about war memorials and what and who should be recorded. Here, after WW2 the government laid down that to stop competition to see who could build the biggest and best, memorials were only to cost a certain amount per inhabitant and they were given a set of suggested designs and wording. So many small and not so small villages memorials simply say, A Nos Morts, with no other details at all - infuriating.