Indian Artillery Men Research

[John Beech]

Afternoon All

I am currently researching those men who served with the Nottinghamshire Battery RHA and have come across two Indian Royal Artillery men who served on attachment with 2nd/1st Battery in Mesopotamia. My knowledge of researching Indian Army men is non existent, but I would like to learn a little more around them. All I have at present are the details from the CWGC, both men are commemorated on the Basra Memorial. Their details are:

50766 Driver Man-Jit who died 7th December 1918 and is listed as son of Pat Ram, of Rampura, Karnal, Punjab
P/19338 Driver Nanhu who died 9th February 1918 and is listed as son of Ballu

Any pointers as to where to start would be appreciated

Regards

John

[MaureenE]

As Royal Artillery men who were Indians, they fall into a fairly small subgroup, and I am unaware of any records, apart from Medal Index Cards, which perhaps you may have already tried.

Even if they had been Indian in the Indian Army there would be very few records, but there would be the Casualty Returns attached to War Diaries, with records at the British Library. However, these are Indian Army records, and my feeling is that they would not cover soldiers from the Royal Artillery, which is part of the British Army.

Cheers

Maureen

[John Beech]

Hi Maureen

Thanks for your response and suggestions.

These men's parent unit was the Indian Royal Artillery, so they were Indian Army, rather than Indians in the British Royal Artillery - apologies if I did not make this clear, so British Library is worth a try

Regards

John

[MaureenE]

My understanding is that there was no such thing as the Indian Royal Artillery. The only Artillery Units in the Indian Army were Mountain Batteries, and perhaps some Garrison batteries in India associated with the Mountain Batteries. These Batteries became part of the Royal Artillery in 1924, but prior to this I do not believe these Mountain Batteries were officially called Indian Royal Artillery. Any records would involve the terminology Mountain Batteries.

There were also Indian personnel who were part of the British Army Royal Artillery. If the word Royal Artillery is mentioned in connection with your men, I believe they would be part of the British Army Royal Artillery.

i do not believe you would find any records for the Indian Royal Artillery at the British Library, because such a thing does not exist.

Cheers

Maureen

[John Beech]

Hi Maureen

Thanks for coming back to me. The term Indian Royal Artillery is as used on their entries on the CWGC.

I did check the term on the Internet and Wikipedia indicates that (and I have nothing to support this) following the Mutiny, all Indian Artillery units were disbanded, with the exception of the four mountain batteries of the Bombay Army, as you indicate, but that four field batteries of the Hyderabad Contingent were also retained, although I believe these later converted to Mountain Batteries as well.

It goes on to say that by WW1 this had increased to 12 Mountain Batteries and that this artillery was then used in WW1 in theatres including Mesopotamia, where 2nd/1st Battery served.

I also noted that an Indian Royal Artillery was not created until 1935, so it is possible that the CWGC terminology relates to this period but it seems unlikely?

The Indian Divisions on LLT are currently being rewritten, but I have found that 3rd (Lahore) Division served in Mesopotamia, but did not appear to contain Indian Mountain Batteries. The other Indian divisions in Mesopotamia were 6th (Poona) Division, 7th (Meerut) Division, 12th Division and 14th, 15th, 17th and 18th Divisions which were all formed in Mesopotamia. Of these, I have only found Mountain Batteries in the 6th (containing the 1st Indian Mountain Artillery Brigade) and 15th Divisions (VII Mountain Brigade, Indian Mountain Artillery). As you see in both instances they are referred to as Indian Mountain Artillery and not Indian Royal Artillery.

Just to confuse matters 17th Division contained 220 Brigade which included 'Anglo Indian' Batteries!

As I said in my original post I am coming from a position of knowing nothing about Indian Artillery, so appreciate your comments and observations.

Based on your comments, I am leaning towards both men being drivers in a Mountain Battery in Mesopotamia and then being seconded in the same roll to 2nd/1st Battery - of course I could be wrong! What I would like is a means to confirm this

Regards

John

[MaureenE]

The Indian Mountain Batteries were part of the Indian Mountain Artillery or I M A

Online book: The History of the Indian Mountain Artillery by Brigadier-General C A L Graham

https://archive.org/details/IndianMountainArtillery

Chapter on WW1: http://www.archive.org/stream/IndianMountainArtillery/mountainartillery#page/n141/mode/2up page 125

Section on Mesopotamia, Persia and Iraq http://www.archive.org/stream/IndianMountainArtillery/mountainartillery#page/n173/mode/2up page 156

Cheers

Maureen

[John Beech]

Hi Maureen

Thanks for taking the time to send me this link. I am sure it will make interesting reading and give me a better appreciation of their role

Regards

John

[pebbles]

Ancestry has a MIC for a 19365 Drv Nanhu Royal Artillery with the award of GSM /India/39/8 643 with clasp Iraq. Different number but clearly RA not Royal Indian Artillery. I have not found anything on Drv Man-Jit.

To my way of thinking that shows Drv Nanhu was in the British Army and not the Indian Army. Both of my grand fathers were serving in the Indian Army having enlisted in the British Army in England, for both of them I have found their MIC's on Ancestry, one served in France and the other in Mesopotamia and they have the appropriate medals, so can someone wiser than I confirm that Drv Nanhu should have an MIC recording these medals?

I have a great respect for the CWGC but there can be discrepancies, for my great grandfather I have a date of death that comes from Indian Army records that is different to that shown on the CWGC entry. In his case he was British, enlisted in England went to India and transferred to the Indian Army. Further at one point the CWGC entry appeared to show my great grandfather was Indian which he was not. I suggest that there was confusion at times over British members of the Indian Army and suggest quite possibly of Indian members of the British Army. The CWGC shows Indian Royal Artillery and I suggest that is wrong, they appear to members of the RA, presumably enlisted in India.

[John Beech]

Afternoon Pebbles

Thanks for your observations, and I appreciate your personal knowledge on this subject.

The Driver Nanhu you have found whilst welcome, may possibly not be the same chap. According to the information I have, the 1918 GSM Iraq clasp was issued those who:

• Served at Ramadi or north of a line east and west through Ramadi between 10 December 1919 and 13 June 1920.
• Part of an establishment within Iraq between 1 July and 17 November 1920.

As 'my' Driver Nanhu died on 9th February 1918, I cannot see how he would be eligible for the clap?

Regards

John

[pebbles]

Thank you for the information on the dates of the medal and the Drv Nanhu I found is not the right person but I think proves that there were Indians enlisted in the Royal Artillery. Should not P/19338 Driver Nanhu have been entitled to at least one war medal and so on a MIC somewhere?

My grand father who enlisted in England, transferred to the Indian Army and served in France has 2 MIC's on Ancestry, one for the 1914 Star and 1 for the War and Victory medals.but grand father who had the same details of service but served in Mesopotamia has only 1 MIC for the award of the MSM and nothing found so far for war medals, so no real consistency here on the evidence I have found so far.

I would suggest that it may be worth contacting the British Library to see if they might have information on Indians who enlisted into the British Forces as I would think that this would have to be approved out there for it to happen.

[rflory]

Most of the artillery for the Indian divisions during the Great War was supplied by the Royal Artillery. Below is a list of the artillery units in the Indian Divisions in August 1914:

1st (Peshawar) Division: VIII Bde RHA, XVI Bde, RFA, III Bde, RFA

2nd (Rawalpindi) Division: VII Bde RFA, II Mtn Bde, RGA, I Mtn Bde, IMA, V Mtn Bde, IMA

3rd (Lahore) Division: I Bde, RHA, III Bde RFA, XVIII Bde RFA

4th (Quetta) Division: XXI Bde RFA, IV Mtn Bde, RGA

5th (Mhow) Division: XIII Bde RHA, XI Bde RFA, XIX Bde RFA, 1/I Home Counties Bde, RFA TF, VI Bde, RFA; XX Bde RFA, 1/III Home Counties Bde RFA TF

6th (Poona) Division: X Bde RFA, XIX Bde RFA

7th (Meerut) Division: XII Bde RHA, VII Mtn Bde, VI Bde RFA, IX Bde RFA, XI Bde RFA, V Bde RFA

8th (Lucknow) Division: V Bde RFA, II Wessex (How) Bde, RFA TF, XVII Bde, RFA, IV Wessex Bde RFA TF

9th (Secunderabad) Division: IV Bde RFA, XIX Bde RFA (only 97 By), XIII Bde RFA, IX Bde RHA

Burma Division: 64 and 75 Companies RGA, 22 Mtn Bty

10th Indian Division: VII Mtn Bde

Regards, Dick Flory

[John Beech]

Hi Dick

Thanks for that very detailed post. As the RA is your area of interest, would you think 'my' Indian drivers are more likely to have served with Mountain Batteries or RA units based in India?

Regards

John