Modelmaker Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 I have a general question re the 9.2" howitzer. The ground was excavated to allow the holdfast beams to be set up prior to the gun being mounted on them. The earth excavated was then used to fill the earth box,,,,,however, what I am asking is who would have done this work, the RGA, ASC or Engineers. I have photographs and details of the beams from the manual, however they were quite long, too long for the GS wagon, so was there a specialised wagon for their transport. Photo's of the component parts of the howitzer "en train" do not seem to include these beams being carried.....so was it feasible that the site chosen was pre-prepared ??? This is just a general enquiry to satisfy my own curiosity....so if someone can enlighten me, I would be grateful. George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petwes Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 George Based on my Grandfather's experience in 48 SB it was down to the gunners. Quotes for example: "Wed 27 September 1916 Putting in beams for left half guns Getting in guns during night. Rather bad" "Sun 19 November 1916 Taking out No. 4 gun. Sunk in shell hole Mon 20 November 1916 Putting beams in for No. 4 gun. Very cold. Tue 21 November 1916 Getting the gun in. Very difficult job. " Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmaker Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 That would appear to be the answer, RGA had all sorts of attachments....survey groups etc......my one query remains, how were they transported to the site....the beams were about 18' long, plus all the other parts...... Thanks, for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodB Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Dale Clarke, "British Artillery 1914-19. Heavy Artillery" page 47 : "The parts of the earth box and holdfast were secured on the bed of the siege carriage for transport". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmaker Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Thats interesting, photo's I have show the earth box carried on the "main bed", no sign of the long holdfast beams.....The manual only states that the holdfast is prepared (?) and the main bed is then moved over the beams. The bed is placed in line with a pole inserted in a hole on the beams. Once in place the carriage /cradle unit is positioned and then the barrel. I cannot see any parts other than the earth box in the photo's I have seen so far. These are from the manual, but searching IWM and other sites, they show the same. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodB Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 The US manual mentions that the platform sits on "firing beams" but makes no mention of their transport, merely mentions that the third transport load consists of the platform and earth box, which corresponds with photos above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmaker Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 That is what the book says....I have the US and the British ones.......they go into great detail on how the gun was assembled, plus I found some excellent photos of the gun being assembled at the Crystal Palace in the 20's........those beams (if I recall correctly were about 18 feet long, here is one "works" photo of an assembled gun on the holdfast beams, you can see just how long they were. Possible the same sort of transport that was used for the 15" howitzer was used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodB Posted 19 June , 2015 Share Posted 19 June , 2015 The "Vickers platform" and its transport for the 8 inch how is covered in depth in the manuals. Odd that the 9.2 inch manuals are incomplete on the topic. Was it dispensed with ? The "Vickers platform" and its transport for the 8 inch how is covered in depth in the manuals. Odd that the 9.2 inch manuals are incomplete on the topic. Was it dispensed with ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmaker Posted 19 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 June , 2015 From what references I have, the holdfast beams are shown in photographs, often difficult to see as they were installed so that the top face was at ground level, so often covered with mud etc. The gun "base" was fixed by three pickets driven down through three brackets on the side of the gun base, these corresponding to picket housings on the holdfast beams. The earth box was also fixed to the holdfast beams......if the beams were not emplaced, the earth box could not be used....so I am convinced it continued in service......the AWM has some interesting photo's one of which I enclose, this shows the beams (just).....an interesting point this photo and others in the series show that the transporting axle (minus wheels) has been left attached to the carriage. Both manuals have scant info re the holdfast, which makes me think they were installed once the gun site was chosen.....as described in Peters response....so we know the gunners installed them.....after a lot of digging !!!!!!!.....as if they didn't have enough to do. Just interested as to how they got there in the first place........I have produced the howitzer in 1/35th scale the kit will be on show at Duxford this weekend....I have also produced the transporting system, it would have been nice to know how the beams were transported to the gun site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petwes Posted 19 June , 2015 Share Posted 19 June , 2015 George I will check through the war diary I have for 48 SB this weekend. It is quite detailed so I will see what I can find. Moving the battery around involved quite a lot of transport; if I recall correctly, apart from the four caterpillars, thirty 3 ton trucks were also required for ammunition stores etc. Would the beams have gone in the back of a lorry? I was also wondering if a battery had a spare set of beams? It would make sense to me when advancing, as they did during the Somme, to have moved forward to a pre-prepared position with beams already in place. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petwes Posted 19 June , 2015 Share Posted 19 June , 2015 George I've had a quick look at the diary and only had to go a few pages before I found the following passage which I have transcribed as faithfully as possible. It doesn’t answer your question but I think possibly gives us a few clues. The spare platforms (which have got to be the firing or holdfast beams) were sent from Ordnance (possibly from III Corps siege park) and sent to the old battery position just west of Albert; maybe the move forward was anticipated but if not this took place within 75 minutes. They then had time to move them forward escorted by the two detachments and dig them in during the night Obviously the Howitzer carriages couldn’t be used for this as the guns had not been dismounted yet. So probably Motor transport was used? Quote from 48 SB War diary 14 July (1916) 9.15 pm Received orders for 2 guns to move forward to position Map 62d NE F1C 22 38 selected by CO on the 11th. Spare platforms from Ordnance sent to old battery position 10.30 pm α taken forward by with (sic) No. 1,2 gun detachments and laid during night under Major Beattie α Lieut Lane Guns No. 2 α No. 4 dismounted during the night α were clear of old position by 7.45 am 15/7 Unquote My Grandfather was spared the night's work as his diary records: Quote Fri 14 July 1916 Fairly easy on duty Sat 15 July 1916 Supposed to be off we get No2 out in action all day 101 rounds had the night off Parcel from Ethel Right half leaves for ___ (sic) Mem Right half leaves taking No 2 + 4 guns Ern. goes with gun Unquote Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmaker Posted 19 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 June , 2015 That is excellent information......many many thanks......it does answer some points, namely there were beams supplied in advance of the guns going into position......quite rightly to assume motor transport......the Holt was used, though the "carriages" were originally set up for horse draft. Carriage is a bit of a misnomer, the only "carriage" as such carried the barrel, it had an endless chain that moved the barrel into position, there are two shaped brackets on the gun carriage, the other components had axles attached to fixing points to enable them to be transported.....all clearly described in the manuals. It was quite a job to get it all assembled, considering the terrain.....I have one photo that shows around 30 guys maneuvering the parts together. I had wondered if the beams may have been placed on wheeled axles, but the drawing does not indicate any fittings for attachment. Somewhere (hope) there may be a description of the vehicle train used, as some photo's also show what could be limbered wagons being towed....not clear on the photo, but might have pioneer tools and other sundries. Most photo's I have show the Holt with just the three basic loads. Thanks again.....I hope you Grandfather survived...my own was a tad too young but was in Germany as part of the occupation forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 19 June , 2015 Share Posted 19 June , 2015 I'm sure centurion or possibly Lancashire Fusiler posted something on the movement of these. One set moved ahead so a set always leap frogging the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmaker Posted 24 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2015 Thanks, That would seem to be the process....the area was prepared prior to the guns being moved in. I had look around both the names you listed, but did not come up with anything....though I didn't read every one, I just looked at the general headings....couldn't find anything that seemed relative..... I think the subject as to who prepared the sites is now solved.....I was looking at some books (Shire series on Army horsed transport).....I would think that the beams could have been transported using the RE pontoon carrier wagons...they appear long enough to handle them....???? George, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 26 June , 2015 Share Posted 26 June , 2015 Have you looked through the motorcard thread started by Lancashire Fusiler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmaker Posted 1 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 July , 2015 Wow, Just spent amazing (few hours) going through the thread......some incredible photo's and info. It has made food for thought, so I have three possible options for transporting those long beams: 1 Long bodied / wheelbase lorries Not suitable for broken ground 2 The tracked "Holt" units, as Holts were used for towing the guns (post horse drawn) Seems the more logical solution 3 The wheeled trailers used for heavy loads and the 15" howitzer. Another possibility, they were used for house bodies for repair and generators, and readily available. Thanks for pointing out the thread.....fascinating. George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 1 July , 2015 Share Posted 1 July , 2015 Modelmaker, I for one would welcome a far bigger picture of what looks to an excellent piece of work. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmaker Posted 1 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 July , 2015 David, I have a mass of my own photo's. As I build the master pattern to allow the model to be cast in parts, I have to photo the individual stages and assemblies....this helps the guy who casts the parts know where everything goes. These then go towards the instructions to make assembly easy (hopefully). You can email me: georgemoore66 @hotmail.co.uk I be only too happy to send you photos, just let me know what you'd like to see. Limitations to the size that can be posted on this site restrict what can be sent. Only too happy to help....just let me know. You could also visit the RESICAST website (too old to learn how to link sites).....there are a number of photo's of the gun and other work I have done, the 18pdr, 60pdr, 6", 8" and the 9.2" howitzers, also the GS wagon. Regards. George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 1 July , 2015 Share Posted 1 July , 2015 You could also visit the RESICAST website (too old to learn how to link sites).....there are a number of photo's of the gun and other work I have done, the 18pdr, 60pdr, 6", 8" and the 9.2" howitzers, also the GS wagon. Regards. George. Here's the link: http://www.resicast.com/products/kits/slideshow-123/index.html Excellent pieces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmaker Posted 1 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 July , 2015 Thanks for that.....my modelling skills far outweigh my IT skills..... If anyone would like more info, I am just a click away...... It is something I enjoy and recall my first ever visit to the IWM as a schoolboy, seeing all those wonderful models on display, (seemingly put away in storage at the moment), and wanting "to do that" Well at 68, I have achieved that ambition. Glad you like them. George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelmaker Posted 1 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 July , 2015 PS, I really should have made mention, that it's only through sites like this I am able to source extra information, and sincere thanks goes out to all those members only too willing to share the info they have. Thank you all. George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petwes Posted 13 May , 2016 Share Posted 13 May , 2016 George I know this is an old thread and I'm sure most of the points about beams were covered but I was looking through 48SB's diary today for some other information and came across the following. At least on this occasion (March 1917) the beams are clearly described as being carried by Lorry. It looks like quite an operation as half the battery were engaged in the job! Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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