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Remembered Today:

The French Army And The First World War


trenchtrotter

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Just finished first chapter of above that covered just prior to WW1 and 1914. It is very very good. Not dry, well written and informative. After all anything on the French in WW 1 is rare in English. Recommended.

By Elizabeth Greenhalgh and published by Cambridge University Press.

TT

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  • 1 month later...

Well finished it. A super work. Charts the French Armies contributions, failings, successes and achievements year by year. Also detAils how the Army the politicians and the citizen were all interwoven. The relations with the allies included. An eye opener as to the huge contribution made. For me the role played in 1918 when most say they are spent was interesting. Their contribution to both defence and offence was crucial and matched the BEF / CEF / AIF etc. also I never realised the role played re equipping and rebuilding the Greek Serbian and Romainisn armies.

One line really sticks. "If the U.S. Was the QMS of the second was France played the same role in the first".

Recommended especially if all you read is about the BEF!!!

TT

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Well finished it. A super work. Charts the French Armies contributions, failings, successes and achievements year by year. Also detAils how the Army the politicians and the citizen were all interwoven. The relations with the allies included. An eye opener as to the huge contribution made. For me the role played in 1918 when most say they are spent was interesting. Their contribution to both defence and offence was crucial and matched the BEF / CEF / AIF etc. also I never realised the role played re equipping and rebuilding the Greek Serbian and Romainisn armies.

One line really sticks. "If the U.S. Was the QMS of the second was France played the same role in the first".

Recommended especially if all you read is about the BEF!!!

TT

matched? It is the French army that "saved" Ypres, and not once, but twice (1914 and 1918)...

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"I never realised the role played re equipping and rebuilding the Greek Serbian and Romainisn armies."

The Italian and Russian Armies too. Also a large number of RFC aircraft were French built and were supplied with spare French aero engines. The 240 mm trench mortar, the flying pig, was a French design. Ironically, though, a large number of the new French artillery pieces which came into use during the middle of the war had originally been commissioned by the Russians. By the end of the war, however, the French were far ahead technically of the British with a range of fully mobile, tracked heavy artillery which would have been used had the war continued into 1919.

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In 2006 there was a 90th anniversary commemorative international conference on the battle of the Somme held at the University of Kent at Canterbury.

Elizabeth Greenhalgh was one of the speakers, and when I heard her I was profoundly impressed : so much so that I wasted no time downloading her book onto my kindle as soon as it was available.

It lives up to all my hopes.

Phil (PJA)

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It lives up to all my hopes.

That is strong praise!

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Looks like a good book but I'm wondering about this statement referring to Joffre's attacks on 21/22 August, 1914, (page 41, from a Google Books snippet): "The next day, two of those French corps in Third Army attacked the solidly entrenched Germans at Longwy and Virton." I thought that the Germans were also in motion which resulted in meeting engagements throughout the Ardennes (no entrenchments).

Dave

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I haven't read the book but if that's what it says it is wrong, the encounters of 22 August were most certainly meeting engagements.

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OK Wikipedia but "To the north the IV Corps also advanced in fog and encountered German troops dug in near Virton and was forced back also with a division routed."

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IV Corps JMO, 22nd August, 5.30 a.m. at Virton The 130e (RI) was stopped by rifle and machine gun fire of the enemy installed in trenches.:

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It lives up to all my hopes.

I obtained and read this book soon after publication as I'm a glutton for anything and everything on the French Army!

For an English language book, I can't say that it lived up to my hopes, but it certainly lived up to my expectations for it.

Dave

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bmac,

You're using a French source and I think it is understandable that they had to find some sort of excuse for their total defeat. Zuber has a lot of faults but I (for one) believe his research on the German armies in the Ardennes to be correct (see "Ardennes 1914", Terence Zuber, 2007). What is the "Wikipedia" comment about?

Dave

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Bill,

Those French JMOs and early works based on them incorrectly refer to entrenched German positions. The engagements of 22 August 1914 were encounter battles, even Grasset by the time of his Rossignol book had recognised this. Recent authors such as Zuber and Delhez expose the myth for what it is, although more general accounts, such as by Hastings and Ferguson, relying too heavily on earlier erroneous French works, repeat the claims.

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Bill,

Those French JMOs and early works based on them incorrectly refer to entrenched German positions. The engagements of 22 August 1914 were encounter battles, even Grasset by the time of his Rossignol book had recognised this. Recent authors such as Zuber and Delhez expose the myth for what it is, although more general accounts, such as by Hastings and Ferguson, relying too heavily on earlier erroneous French works, repeat the claims.

It is very much clear from German sources as wll that they were advancing and were not entrenched at all. They were very much surprised by the French attacks but in most cases quickly adapted to the situation and managed to gain control quite quickly.

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I may yet take your various words for it.

On the other hand, I am looking as I am, at the JMOs of the 124e RI which refers to trenches just south of woods to the north of Virton; while that of the 115e RI talks of a superior enemy well entrenched in positions prepared in advance; and that of the 8e Division talks of entrenchments prepared in advance.As already mentioned the other regiment involved has in its JMO that the 130e (RI) was stopped by rifle and machine gun fire of the enemy installed in trenches.

Given the circumstances of heavy losses and precipitate retreat it seems odd to me that four units would find the time and even think it useful to connive together to produce a version of events like this. After all, if they wanted an excuse for blundering into the enemy then the fog would have provided one.

Can anyone quote directly from a German unit diary involved in this fighting which states they were not entrenched in any way?

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Fair enough, Zuber used numerous German histories for his book (as well as French documentation), I'm not sure you would be satisfied with that as the material wouldn't be in the original German and he (Zuber) paraphrases throughout most of the book, it is well footnoted however. I can see what I can find if you want.

Dave

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Dave,

Don't want to put anyone to any trouble it is just that I prefer original documentation, i.e. a war diary preferred to a regimental history and certainly to any later historians' 'interpretations'. This is not a big issue, though, so please don't put yourself out.

Bill

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Hi Bill,

A lot of the French JMOs were written up sometime after the event as the fighting was so intense and in some cases don't exist at all. The German forces advanced 10 miles+ south from the Etalle in the morning to the encounter at Virton(the orders being given earlier that night), e.g.confirmed by the war memoires of the Crown Prince. This decision of the Crown Prince and his V Army could have led to a disaster for the Germans as it created a gap into which was advancing the French Colonial Corps. Fortunately a junior officer realised the danger and drove through the night to ask the Duke Albrecht to move units from his IV Army to cover. This they did, falling upon the Colonial Corps at Rossignol and the rest is history.

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Given your requirements for original material I can't give you anything convincing. Anyway, you're certainly entitled to view history as you wish.

Dave

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What does "JMOs"stand for, please?

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JMO - Journal des marches et operations, i.e. a war diary.

Steve

I am aware of the lack of JMOs for several parts of the Colonial Corps for 22nd August as I have tried to find information and know that neither the 2e or 3e Colonial Divisions have any record of events in the JMOs. I am not clear, though what this has to do with the French IV Corps at Virton whichi is 20 kilometres or so away?

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Given your requirements for original material I can't give you anything convincing. Anyway, you're certainly entitled to view history as you wish.

Dave

Dave,

All I am doing currently is interpreting events at Virton in the light of the only original set of documents available to me. In the absence of anything else that seems the sensible thing to do.

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JMO - Journal des marches et operations, i.e. a war diary.

Thank you.

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Hi Bill,

It is relevant on two counts: 1) It demonstrates that the Germans only arrived in force north of Virton (Ferme de Bellevue) on the morning of the 22nd i.e no time to entrench other than scrape holes etc once the initial contact was made. 2) The French 3e and 4e armies advanced in echelon formation and consequently all the separate engagements were intrinsically linked.

I accept that it may not specifically relate to the 124e at Virton but it does illustrate the nature of the fighting that day.

On a separate point Bill, the Battle of the Frontiers is away from your usual subject of the Somme; is it a new area of focus or were you just prompted by the thread ?

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