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Remembered Today:

Possible misidentification CWGC


AOK4

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My book about Moorslede has been published and I have explained why I think 3849 Joseph Johnstone is now buried in Harelbeke and not J. Johnson. Someone should probably put this case to the MOD/CWGC...

Jan

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  • 2 weeks later...

How can we prove that the Soldier in that grave is 3849 Joseph Horatio Johnson/Johnstone 10th King's Liverpool Regiment. I was having a talk with Ian Riley and his colleague about this, and unless they exhume this soldier and ask for DNA from present day relatives we just have to assume that we are correct.

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How can we prove that the Soldier in that grave is 3849 Joseph Horatio Johnson/Johnstone 10th King's Liverpool Regiment. I was having a talk with Ian Riley and his colleague about this, and unless they exhume this soldier and ask for DNA from present day relatives we just have to assume that we are correct.

Kathy, Good to speak to you today at the Museum of Liverpool Family History Day today. I had not realised that you had come over to speak to Dennis and I about quite such an important matter and I confess to being distracted by a coffee and sandwich (sorry - I had missed breakfast and lunch). All this passed entirely under my radar on the GWF but I was aware of some of the interesting background of the Johnston/Johnstones. It may take me some time to get my head round all this evidence; mis-attributed burials and the evidence required by the CWGC are not my field. I will discuss this later in the coming week with Dennis and others.

Ian

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I have been looking into Private Joseph Johnson 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers Regiment Number 10411

There is a Entry on the British Red Cross Site for this Soldier under Reference PA 4365 which has the following:-

JOHNSON J

Soldat 10411, 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers. Reporte blesse et disparu depuis (Reported wounded and missing since_ 12 Mars 1915

REP: M.E.B Clayhills, Invergowrie House, Dundee. N.B

Negatff envoy 6/8/15 pas de deiu nen (Anyone know what this means) 31/7/1915

The Ref PA 4365 is crossed out. When I looked at PA 4365 there was no entry for this Soldier

The way I read this is that they did not locate him as a POW-Could be wrong.

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I have approached IFTC about this case. On the death report for Josef Johnstone from the British Red Cross record it does not state regiment number which would help with the case. I will keep you updated on this case. What I would like to clarify was Joseph Johnson of the Royal Scots Fusiliers 10422, actually taken POW or was he KIA 12th March 1915. It states on the British Red Cross Record for Private Joseph Johnson, Royal Scots Fusiliers, 10422, Negatiff, this would say to me they could not find any record of this Soldier as a POW.

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I have approached IFTC about this case. On the death report for Josef Johnstone from the British Red Cross record it does not state regiment number which would help with the case. I will keep you updated on this case. What I would like to clarify was Joseph Johnson of the Royal Scots Fusiliers 10422, actually taken POW or was he KIA 12th March 1915. It states on the British Red Cross Record for Private Joseph Johnson, Royal Scots Fusiliers, 10422, Negatiff, this would say to me they could not find any record of this Soldier as a POW.

I would say he was killed in action then on 12 March 1915. Anyway his unit was nowhere near Ypres or Moorslede in March or June 1915.

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IFTC have replied and they advise that the researcher who started this topic put all evidence to CWGC and see what they say.

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From Soldiers Effects Register

Joseph Johnstone 3849 10 KLR

Death given as 'on or about 17/6/15 whilst POW wounds'

Father Wm. H mother Louisa.

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I'll try to send an e-mail to the CWGC next week (to which e-mail adress should I send the stuff?).

Jan

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enquiries@cwgc.org

If you need any copies of obituary notices etc I and BillyH can supply them. While I was in Darlington this week I went to the local studies department to see if I could locate anything on Joseph Johnson of the Royal Scots Fusiliers. He is not recorded on any local War Memorial in Darlington and I did not have a lot of time to go through the local paper, however I passed on all the information regarding the 2 Joseph's to the local expert who is the main man on Darlington. I will see if I can make a appointment to call into the Liverpool Scottish Archives and see if they have anything in their Archives.

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Hi,

Not sure if this helps or hinders.

My interest in Joseph Jonson was peaked with the Invergowrie connection mentioned in post number 31 as I am researching the men and women from that area who served in WW1 and had not come across this individual.

According to De Ruvigny’s Roll of Honour, 10411 Joseph Johnson was born at Stockton-on-Tees, went to school at Coatbridge and enlisted on the 8th August 1911. He was wounded and captured at Neuve Chapelle in March 1915 and then died from the result of the wounds at Fiedl Moorslede on the 19th of June 1915. His father was James Johnson of I Field Street, Darlington. The Darlington connection ties in with post number 31 which mentions M.E.B. Clayhills, (possibly a sister of George Clayhills - Miss Elizabeth Becket Clayhills) of Invergowrie House, Dundee. Invergowrie House was a family home of George Clayhills DSO who was KIA on the 2nd November 1914 and the Clayhills had very strong links with Darlington.

So if 10411 Johnson was wounded and captured at Neuve Chapelle in March 1915 it could be possible that he died at Fiedl Moorslede in June 1915.

Gordon

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So if 10411 Johnson was wounded and captured at Neuve Chapelle in March 1915 it could be possible that he died at Fiedl Moorslede in June 1915.

Hello,

Knowing quite a bit about how the German Army functionned: no, that is very, very unlikely (not to say impossible). The Germans at that time did not have British POWs working in Flanders (they only had Russian POWs). Also the possibility of the Germans taking a wounded British soldier 100 km along their frontline to have him treated in a frontline field hospital is impossible.

Jan

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I have sent my e-mail and will keep you informed.

Jan

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Private 3849 Joseph Johnstone was posted as missing and wounded in action 16th June 1915 after the charge of the Liverpool Scottish at Hooge. Now the British Government and the German Government had an agreement that any soldiers taken POW by either side who died whilst in captivity would be buried with respect and a wooden cross would be placed on that grave recording Name, Rank, Regiment and number, apart from the error of regiment every detail on that wooden cross points to Private Joseph Johnstone 3849, 10th King's Liverpool (Scottish) Regiment. Private 3849 lay in that grave at Moorslede till after WW1. The commission even recorded him as Private 3849 Joseph Johnstone. Now in order for the Germans to record 3849 they must have had a document with 3849 (Dog tag) on. The soldier in that grave is Private 3849 Joseph Johnstone of the King's Liverpool Regiment (Scottish).

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When was National Roll of Honour and De Ruvigny’s Roll compiled and what sources were used? If this Roll was compiled after SDGW then this source will have been compiled from information from taken from SDGW information. This is a sticky topic.

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